The Creative Nonfiction Podcast with Brendan O'Meara
Published by Brendan O'Meara
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The Creative Nonfiction Podcast with Brendan O'Meara is a weekly podcast that showcases leaders in narrative journalism, essay, memoir, documentary film, radio and podcasts about the art and craft of telling true stories. Follow the show @creativenonfictionpodcast on Instagram and visit patreon.com/cnfpod to support!
"We probably have some sense of what narrative is. So when your brain starts turning into the little movie camera because this is a juicy scene, then it's like, well, what would I want to show? What what would I want to know here?" says Jennifer Keishin Armstrong, author of Parks and Rec: The Underdog TV Show That Lit'rally Inspired a Vision for a Better America. Dude, we have Jennifer Keishin Armstrong here today. What brings her to the CNF Pod-o-Verse is her latest book, her ninth, titled Parks and Rec: The Underdog TV Show That Lit-rally Inspired a Vision for a Better America. It’s published by Dutton with a forward by Nick Offerman. Jennifer also is the best selling author of Seinfeldia, and we talk about that as well, how timing is everything and there are so many things out of our control … She can be found @jmkarmstrong on IG and jenniferkamrstrong.com . OK, so Jennifer’s Parks book came out earlier this year and it’s a wonderful, breezy read about one of my all-time favorite TV shows, a show that is deeply important to me. We watch it all the time. We own the DVDs so we actually OWN it, not beholden to the whims of streaming platforms who can deplatform shows at the click of a mouse, presumably. Jennifer’s book takes you behind the scenes with actors, writers, producers and shares never before told anecdotes and insights as to why this show has such staying power despite nearly being cancelled after every season. So, yes, we talk about Parks, but we mainly talk about: Dictionaries When your brain turns into a movie camera Jennifer’s “practice book” she never talks about Her guidelines for pursuing a book How the dialogue around TV has changed in the last 25 years The ruthlessness of story craft How Parks got out from under the shadow of The Office Serendipity and non-meritocracy Living on the long tail Lessons from the Parks run And all the things out of our control Instagram: @creativenonfictionpodcast Substack: welcometopitchclub.substack.com
"My career is not a straight path; it's a lot of happenstance where I just sort of somehow get a job and then figure out how to do it once I'm there," says Rachel Hartigan, author of Lost: Amelia Earhart's Three Mysterious Deaths and One Extraordinary Life. Today we have Rachel Hartigan, who, yes, is dignified and reputable. She’s the author of Lost: Amelia Earhart’s Three Mysterious Deaths and One Extraordinary Life. It’s published by Nat Geo. We share an agent, so that was how her book got on my radar. If you’re a relative newb to the Amelia Earhart story, Rachel’s book is a riveting take on the three main theories of Earhart’s tragic death either by castaway, captive, or having sunk at sea in her beautiful Lockheed Electra. Rachel weaves together all these theories with a lean, propulsive biography of a woman far ahead of her time. She’s written about everything from the genetics of persimmon trees to the long road to women’s suffrage for National Geographic. She is the former editor of the Washington Post's Book World and she has also covered education and culture for U.S News & World Report. You can learn more about her at rachelhartiganauthor.com . Had a lot of fun with this as we talk about: Happenstance Hard-earned experience Breaking down David Grann’s The Lost City of Z Modeling a text Focusing on clarity Being in partnership with the reader Being a minimalist interviewer Saying yes to things Finding something new to say about Earhart Why Earhart is still appealing to this day Cave Day And learning how to sell your story as if you’re telling it at a cocktail party (this echoes Alex Ronan’s quip) Pair this episode with David Grann's two appearances, Nick Davidson's appearances, as well Cassidy Randall's appearances.
"I feel like before I have the confidence to write in the way that I want to write, where I really own the material, I have to spend so much time with people. I will say at the outset, once I walk someone through what it's going to involve after they say yes to talking to me, I'll say I'm going to be around a lot and you're going to get sick of me," says Pamela Colloff, author of Catch the Devil. Today’s guest, I mean, wow, from the bottom of the diaphragm up, wow. It’s Pamela Colloff. You know her from her National Magazine Award winning work for Texas Monthly and ProPublica/The New York Times Magazine. She’s THE premier investigative reporter in the country and she’s now the author of Catch the Devil: A True Story of Murder, Deception, and Injustice on the Gulf Coast. It’s published by Knopf. This book upends what you think a true crime story is about where the true villain isn’t a person at all. It chronicles, among others, Paul Skalnik, a jailhouse snitch, whose non-credible testimony places numerous men on death row, Jim Dailey, in particular, and Pamela takes us through this riveting narrative and punishing commentary on capital punishment and why Florida seems hellbent on being No. 1 in executions. Here’s just a slice of what Pam is about: She is a two-time National Magazine Award winner, once for reporting and once for feature writing. Her work has been adapted for narrative and documentary films including Tower, which was short-listed in 2016 for an Oscar. Her work has been anthologized in Best American Magazine Writing, Best American Crime Reporting, and Next Wave: America’s New Generation of Great Literary Journalists. She joined ProPublica/The New York Times Magazine in 2017 after many years at Texas Monthly. Listen, I could go on. You get the gist. In this episode, we talk about: What drew her to Tom Wolfe and Hunter S. Thompson Speaking with Tom Junod The Boys Club of longform writing Her start at Texas Monthly Being a journalism dork The elation and despair How every story is a Rubix cube The Skip Hollandsworth Method Owning the material Knowing when to quote and when not to Idea generation Writing is hard How magazine writing and book writing are different animals Why Catch the Devil is her now-or-never moment Beginnings are the worst Being more disciplined with a book vs. magazine writing Writing in this attention economy Pair this episode with Ep. 255 with Maddy Crowell and Ep. 414 with John Rosengren, and many other Atavist true crimey pods, too many to mention here. I’d also chuck in Ep. 224 with Patrick Radden Keefe. He’ll be back on the show for the paperback run of London Calling.
"I love talking with people. I also like that process of trying to shape messy reality into some kind of story, or that moment when you're alone with your notes, and you're trying to figure out how to organize it, and how to bend it into something that works as a story that will carry readers. That's the probably that's the kind of calmest moment for me," says Matthew Wolfe, author of Fires in the Night: The Earth Liberation Front, the FBI, and Secret History of Eco-Sabotage. Hey, CNFers, another LIVE podcast recording, this at Hodgepodge Books & Taps in Eugene, where I spoke to author and journalist Matthew Wolfe and about the art and craft of telling true stories. Pretty great. I love bringing my rig to places and gigging the podcast. This was a standing-room only event and they sold out of books, and two kegs were kicked. Is it the CNF Pod effect? You tell me. Matthew was on the show last year when he had an Atavist story so I HAD to talk to him, haha, but he reached out to me several weeks ago wondering if I’d be willing to interview him as part of a book event and I was like, I know a venue and we’ll make it a podcast. HIs book is Fires in the Night: The Earth Liberation Front, the FBI, and a Secret History of Eco-Sabotage. It’s published by Viking. I cut out the Q&A portion of this because you couldn’t hear the question and I wasn’t assertive enough to repeat the question into the mic. I’ll be better about that in the future, but also, that’s the ephemeral part of the live experience: part of why we attend live events is because it’s here and then it isn’t. So in this live podcast, Matt and I talk about: The ledger of invisible debts Asking questions in a stakeless way How Matt interviews Shaping messy realities How research is like cooking Broad stroke outlining Writing through quotes Why he’s still drawn to this kind of work Competing with the phone And the blood, flesh, and messiness of human existence Do enjoy.
"One of the things that Patrick Radden Keefe told me was, when I'm doing interviews, I'm always thinking about the anecdote that I will tell someone later at a bar, this is the thing I talk about. That's helpful because there's so much to work with even in one interview or one scene, and the those little gems that you pull out instinctively when you're talking to other people have value, and so I'm often thinking about that in terms of writing," says Alex Ronan, who wrote "The Extremist in the Family" for the Atavist Magazine. Today we welcome Alex Ronan who wrote The Extremist in the Family: The Kerrs were devoted to one another and to their faith. But when one of their own rejected modern medicine in the name of God, they faced a dire question: What if her children ever needed a doctor to save their lives? There’s a note as well: This story contains descriptions of child abuse and death. It draws from testimony given by many of the named subjects and extensive court records. That sets the table, no? It reminded me of the Metallica song “The God That Failed.” You should check it out. It’s what happens when people who believe in divine healing reject medical treatment on religious grounds and die. This story has newborn deaths in it, wholly preventable with a little vaccine that addresses Rh incompatibility. Essentially, when an Rh negative mother conceives a child with an Rh positive father, and the fetus is Rh positive, the mother creates antibodies that attack the fetus’s blood cells, which will lead to a potentially fatal case of jaundice, if untreated within a day or so after birth. Abigail, the baby, was Rh positive. Prayers did not, nor could they ever, have saved her. She wasn’t the only one. Alex Ronan is a journalist whose work has appeared in Elle, New York, The New York Times, n + 1, The Nation, and Vogue. She was a 2023 recipient of a New York Foundation for the Arts fellowship. She has had work optioned for film/television by Amazon Studios and Hulu, which is kinda cray. You can find her on Instagram at alexronan and on Substack at reallyalexronan. This was a really rich conversation, and she really came to play ball, which I always appreciate. We talk about: Using short fiction as a model for nonfiction writing How she builds character in nonfiction Active listening Divine healing The family, the story, and the stakes Putting the reader in different people’s shoes Walking before writing Seeking the anecdote (a tip she learned from Patrick Radden Keefe) The power of practice And what she struggles with Parting shot will be right after this part of the podcast. Let’s wait no more. Here’s Alex Ronan.
"The mission of a nonfiction writer is to get the damn thing done," says Wil Haygood, author of several books, including his latest The War Within A War: The Black Struggle in Vietnam and at Home. I’m so thrilled to welcome back Wil Haygood to the show to talk about and celebrate his latest book The War Within a War: The Black Struggle in Vietnam and at Home. It’s published by Knopf. Wil is one of the most accomplished journalists and authors working in American letters and just a good-ass dude. He’s the author of several books including The Butler (which was made into a movie), Showdown, The Harlem Renaissance, In Black and White, Sweet Thunder, and Colorization. He and I both have ties to the Goucher College MFA in Creative Nonfiction Program and he was generous enough to blurb my first book, Six Weeks in Saratoga, and it’s those little things like that that can make an insecure, low-on-confidence person like myself feel like a king for a day. Had a great time catching up with Wil. He was on the podcast back on Ep. 295 when I interviewed him as part of Goucher’s winter residency, so that’s a fun one to check out. When we spoke, the U.S. had just started bombing Iran in a senseless barrage of violence that appears to have been a monumental loss for the U.S., so that is some of the context of this conversation as we talk about Vietnam and how this country still wrestles with the legacy of it. Wil is one of the good ones and so happy you get to hear him chat about: How he needs the research to be finished before he writes Exploring the riddles of America His encounters with the late great David Halberstam How luck and fortune come into play Shoeleather reporting Tape recorders and notebooks The stirring cover of this book Why this country still grapples with the Vietnam War Highlighting untold stories of women who served during Vietnam And what kept him going through the doubt Stick around for a parting shot Chuckanut conference prep and an update on the forthcoming audio magazine.
"You don't have to go to the far ends of the earth, but I'm willing to do that for you, and tell you what I found," says Susan Orlean, bestselling author of several books, including her latest, Joyride: A Memoir. Look who’s back! It’s Susan Orlean, author of the memoir Joyride about her roller coaster career as a writer and journalist spanning decades from her time at Willamette Weekly here in Oregon to the summit of The New Yorker, from her first book Saturday Night to reaching bestseller heights with The Orchid Thief, Rin Tin Tin, and The Library Book. It’s a book that braids her life story along with hard-earned writing wisdom. We talk about: Using notebook and pen over the recorder The quality of her attention Resilience What is it that clicks with her for a story Working through three regime of trust at The New Yorker The more you learn of the world the better Curiosity as a form of compassion Idea generation Her ‘best’ rejection Why books loom larger for her There is no end to a story The breeding ground of jealousy Letting the reporting meander And Patreon questions! This episode pairs well with: Eps. 61, 121, and 281 with Susan Ep. 500 with John McPhee Ep. 514 with Tony Rehagen Follow the show on Instagram @creativenonfictionpodcast and subscribe to my newsletters Pitch Club and Rage Against the Algorithm.
"You never know what insight or information you're going to glean from someone, and so I want to be open to surprises. And not have any preconceived notions of what, who this person is, what they're going to tell me, imposing my own values, beliefs, whatever on them, because it's all a discovery," says Pulitzer Prize-winner Barry Meier, whose piece "You Can Run" appears in The Atavist Magazine. Barry Meier is here for another Atavistian chat! Yeah, these have not come out in as timely a manner as I had hoped. The late delay of the “revived” one with Mac Montandon, and having pods that were getting moldy in the can too precedence. Anyway … Barry Meier has won this little award you might have heard of called the, what is it, oh, yes, the Pulitzer Prize as part of a team of reporters in International Reporting for the New York Times. He’s also been a finalist for the Pulitzer and a two-time winner of the George Polk Award. He’s got a new piece out for The Atavist magazine titled: You Can Run: When their parents ripped two young sisters from their privileged lives, gave them fake names, and took them on the lam, they thought it was because their father was in trouble with the IRS. It would be years before they learned the truth about his life of crime.” He’s the author of three books, Pain Killer, which was the first to chronicle the Sackler family and the origin of the opioid epidemic. “The book that started it all,” wrote Patrick Radden Keefe, whose book Empire of Pain was heavily informed by Barry’s work. Barry also wrote Spooked and Missing Man. You can learn more about Barry at barryemierbooks.com . In this conversation we talk about: Using the boundaries of an envelope to map out a story Interviewing and the tools he uses or doesn’t use Being open to surprises Beginnings, endings, and pacing This episode pairs well with Ep. 385 with Robert Kolker
"I always think, 'Jesus, this person could be reading War and Peace, and they picked up this dopey little book.' You know what I mean? So the best thing I could do is be interesting or helpful. I can't be boring, and I've got to try to be helpful," says Austin Kleon, author of Don't Call It Art: 10 Ways to Create Like a Kid Again. What a pleasure to welcome back Austin Kleon to the show to chat up his new book, his first in seven years, Don’t Call It Art: 10 Ways to Create Like a Kid Again. It’s published by Tarcher. Like Austin’s previous books in Steal Like an Artist, Show Your Work, and Keep Going, this pink wonder is the size of those old double-album CD cases you’d get in the 90s and it’s packed with insights and inspiration Austin learned from his two young boys about being an artist and how to be a creative person in times where creativity is needed more than ever. Fun stuff. So Austin is a funny, irreverent, sometimes cranky, but almost always inspiring based on his posture in the creative world. The stuff he curates and his generosity in sharing it is a big reason his Substack audience is 309,000 people strong and as of this taping, #5 in art & illustration on the stack. You can also learn more about him at austinkleon.com where he frequently blogs, though he’s turned the dial down on that a bit in favor of the paid audience of his Tuesday newsletters. I’ve been plugged into the Kleon-verse since about 2014 right when Show Your Work came out and he made appearances on Creative Live with Chase Jarvis, so it’s been cool to see the arc of his career to date. In this episode, we talk about: Place and his Ohio roots The farmer approach The idea of uncertainty Knowing less Getting back to that thing The most punk thing Metallica did What if Austin is the apprentice now? A revelation from Fiona Apple How his paid newsletter audience helped cook the book Researching in the open Knowing what weight class he’s in Being interesting and helpful Going full-on Beast Mode The coveting of creative people How jealousy shows what’s broken in you And how his kids brought punk back into his life If you’re going to pair this episode with anything, check out: Episode 146: Austin Kleon Episodes 169 and 433 with Chase Jarvis Episode 266 with Kristen Radtke Episode 369 with Akeem S. Roberts Episode 480 with Dana Jeri Maier Episode 486 with Roz Chast
"Maybe your first images are some bulked up organism, or whatever. Then there's that kind of like sinewy strength that you see in like middleweight fighters. Roberto Duran comes to mind as the epiphany, like a super powerful, sinewy guy, right? And so I think that's what we're talking about too, is just those different forms of power, economy is really seductive to me now," says Maccabee Montandon, whose piece on his brother Asher is featured as a "revived" Atavist story. The factory is running behind here at CNF Pod HQ, but we’ve got the first of two Atavist pods coming this month. It’s Maccabee Montandon being featured for The Atavist’s “revived” series. This story, originally published by Gawker in 2013, details the story of Mac’s brother Asher, who was murdered in Los Angeles in the 1990s. Mac is a journalist, writer, filmmaker, all around creative person and in this episode we talk about: Obsessions and the best forms to tell stories Being creatively impulsive Word economy and sinewy strength How the proximity to tragedy often activates people Writing through grief And his strength as a writer (he’s fast) Visit magazine.atavist.com to read "A Hollywood Ending."
"They want the secret, and the secret is little and often over the long haul," says Dan John, author of several books on strength and fitness, most recently The Fitness Forge: Master Coaching Tools that Build Real Strength. Today we’ve got a bit of a curve ball, a backdoor slider, but not really. It’s Dan John, who is something of a Swiss army knife of wisdom and kindness and strength and conditioning. He’s been a long time strength coach and a master communicator of how to get real-life strong, not influencer, flash-in-the-pan strong, the kind of strong that allows you to fill out your shirt, carry all the groceries in one go, and shovel the driveway without leaving yourself in traction for four days. I’ve recommended his books many times on this show and in newsletters, and his approach to strength very much rhymes with writing, so that’s a big reason why I wanted to invite him on to talk it out. You can visit danjohnuniversity.com to learn more about him and to buy books like the Easy Strength Omnibook, Easy Strength for Fat Loss, his two Armor Building Formula books and his latest The Fitness Forge: Master coaching tools that build real strength. The real crux of easy strength is that it echoes what Percy Cerutty, the Australian running coach, had his runners do in the 1950s, and it’s an approachable system that doesn’t feel like you’ve been put through a wood chipper. I spent most of my 30s training like I was a juiced up bodybuilder, hobbling around most days with that deep, bone ache. As I’ve aged, training in that manner is unfeasible and, well, fucking stupid, plus easy strength is awesome for running, which I’m doing quite a lot these days. So Dan John has been a champion discus thrower coming up on the coattails of the great throwers of the 1970s, guys like Brian Oldfield and Mac Wilkins and Peter Shmock. His lifting approach has always been geared around utility, not aesthetics, by and large. He has written many books like Mass Made Simple, 40 Years with a Whistle, Can You Go, Never Let Go, and several others. Some are only available on the big A, others are available as PDFS through his website. They imbue a sense of possibility, that things are achievable, and that little and often over the long haul is doable and repeatable. If you’re into fads, Dan is not for you and he often injects so much personal anecdote and wisdom from a life of nearly 70 years into his work and his podcast, the Dan John University Podcasts where he answers listener questions every week. He’s very centering for me. Even hearing him talk through something as simple as his daily pirate map, which is a collection of daily habits, and merely hearing him so often articulate that defrags my computer, if that makes any sense. So in this conversation, we talk about: Parasocial relationships Marvel and Greek heroes The spiderweb effect of his brain Open Culture Little and often over the long haul The secret Being a slave to habits Parallels between lifting and writing Collecting the links Getting small, easy wins out of the way Inspiration is for amateurs Having skin in the game And community making us great You’ll find dan @coachdanjohn on instagram and of course visit danjohnuniversity.com to see if his books or his inner circle is right for you.
"It all has to come from within. So we each have to be in conversation with ourselves and with the work. It's really a relationship, not a project," says Ramona Ausubel, author of Unstuck: A Writer's Guide. Today we have Ramona Ausubel, author of Unstuck: A Writer’s Guide. It’s published by Tin House. Ramona’s curriculum vitae is pretty dope. She’s the author of the novels The Last Animal, Sons and Daughters of East and Plenty and No One is Here Except All of Us and the craft book Unstuck: 101 Doorways Leading from the Blank Page to the Last Page. Had a TON of fun with this one and it’s a craft bomb. Ramona’s work has appeared in The New Yorker, Tin House, The New York Times, Electric Literature, and The Paris Review online. She has taught with Tin House, Bread Loaf, and she’s a professor at Colorado State University. This is a really fun and really crafty chat. We talk about: Why people want to be writers in the first place The people who stick around Coming up with ways through It's a relationship not a project No writing is ever wasted Nobody needs a kind-of-written book Submission clubs The offering is the action Community Shame, doubt, and envy Lifelong process of voice Inviting in other influences When querying asking 'who will you be?' Platform You can learn more about Ramona at ramonaausubel.com and follow her on Instagram @ramonaausubel. If you like this episode, I would definitely check out: Eps. 48 and 207 with Roy Peter Clark Ep. 49 with Dinty W. Moore Ep. 50 with Ted Conover
"I say this all the time, and I'll say it again: the truth is a block of wood, and I know the sculpture I carve out of that block of wood looks different than the sculpture my mother carves out of that block of wood, right? But the truth — the block of wood — is what what happens, but the art we make out of that is up to us," says Isaac Fitzgerald, author of American Rambler: Walking the Trail of Johnny Appleseed. We’ve got Isaac Fitzgerald returning to the podcast. He’s going to be at Powells on May 29, 7 p.m., in convo with Lidia Yuknavitch, and I’ll likely be heading up the 5 to photo bomb them because Isaac has a new book out called American Rambler: Walking the Trail of Johnny Appleseed. It is published by Knopf. Great talk. We were buzzin’, man. In any case, you know Isaac maybe from his bookish appearances on The Today Show, and he’s also the author of the brilliant memoir Dirtbag, Massachusetts, a coming of age story. I liken American Rambler to a coming of middle-age story and as Isaac walks and drives in the footsteps of one John Chapman, better known as Johnny Appleseed. It’s a book that deals with that squishy time as we crest into our forties and reckon with mortality as well as the greater disconnection we’re collectively experiencing, which is why Isaac set out, largely on foot, to put his phone down and live in the world. His essay on walking for The Guardian, linked up in the show notes, very much informed and even catalyzed American Rambler. So Isaac is a pretty special dude. I love the posture he takes in the world. When I had lunch with Lidia before her live appearance on the show, we talked about how Isaac had jumped into the comments on a couple of our Instagram posts and Lidia asked me, “Is Isaac coming to this?” I said, “I don’t think so. I mean he’s in New York.” “It would totally be like him to just show up.” And I kinda love that idea. I want to make more of that effort myself. So in this episode we talk about: Putting the phone down Living in the world Walking 20,000 steps a day The tension between building community and withdrawing into solitude The scaffolding of the story How he was late to the arc of his own story Stories become what they’re supposed to be How the truth is like a block of wood The black dog as literary device First lines And how On The Road informed American Rambler Isaac can be found on Instagram at isaac.fitzgerald and you can join his Substack list Walk It Off and learn more about him at his website isaacfitzgerald.net . He’s also collaborated with the brilliant cartoonist Wendy McNaughton on two books about tattoos, Pen and Ink and Knives and Ink. Great stuff. If you like this episode, I would definitely check out Isaac’s first appearance on Ep. 353. I’d also check out: Ep. 100 with Mary Karr Episode 200 with Nick Flynn Ep. 358: Erica J. Berry Ep. 472 with Melissa Febos Ep. 503 with Jason Brown
"This is also me saying here's a literary reading of the universe through physics. There's a way you can read The Edge of Space-Time as me doing close-reading for a few 100 pages. I'm close-reading equations. I'm close-reading Dirac. I'm close-reading Hawking and Ellis, but it's all different versions of a literary practice," says Chanda Prescod-Weinstein, author of The Edge of Space-Time: Particles, Poetry, and the Cosmic Dream Boogie (Pantheon Books). Coming at you at the speed of sound, CNFers, with Chanda Prescod-Weinstein, who is the author of The Disordered Cosmos: A Journey into Dark Matter, Spacetime, and Dreams Deferred and her latest book The Edge of Space-Time: Particles, Poetry, and the Cosmic Dream Boogie. It’s published by Pantheon Books. She is an associate professor of physics and core faculty member in women’s and gender studies at the University of New Hampshire. Her work lives at the intersection of particle physics, cosmology, and astrophysics and she’s also a theorist of Black feminist science studies. Her book is accessible, for sure, but it’s mind-bendy and it strikes me as the kind of book you want to read twice. One, it’s good company, and two, the material she translates is really difficult to get your head around, but that’s the nature of the quantum mechanics, and general relativity, and particle physics, and how the hell did we get here in the first place? Gah! So Chanda talks about: The publishing business in conversations she had with CNF Pod alum Keith O’Brien Writing for Black and queer audiences The different selves who approach the page Paying attention to acknowledgements Epigraph rights and how they set the vibe The fork in the road researchers face when they write a pop science book Physicist brain A literary reading of the universe The world keeps happening while you’re writing Understanding metaphors And what Newton and Einstein might talk about if they sat down at a bar together Be sure you visit Chanda’s website chanda.science and follow her on Instagram at chanda.prescod.weinstein. This episode will pair well with: Episode 103: Persistent, Constant, Careful Work with Dennis Overbye Episode 111: The Empowering and Exciting Nature of Film with Emer Reynolds Episode 307: Greg Brennecka Episode 334: Katrina Miller Episode 395: “The Six,” Mini-Deadlines and the Twang with Loren Grush
"I'm very comfortable not writing perfectly. I think a lot of writers have difficulty writing because they can be such good editors that there's almost this like, inherent need of sometimes rereading the same chapter over and over again and trying to make it perfect. And so I think, for me, I'm very comfortable with the idea of, like, let me just get stuff on paper," says Mary Cain, author of This is Not About Running: A Memoir. It’s Mary Cain! She’s @runmarycain on Instagram and she serves on the board of The Army of Survivors and the founder of the nonprofit Atalanta NYC which employs professional female runners to serve as mentors to girls in underserved part so the city. For a certain subset of people they’re gonna be like, Who dat? To them, I say, Mary was a running prodigy in the 2010s, the fastest high school girl in America and one of the fastest across all ages before the age of 18 in events like the 800 meters and the 1,500. She was recruited by the now disgraced Alberto Salazar for the Nike Oregon Project where she was physically, emotionally, and psychologically abused by Salazar in a win-at-all-costs culture. In 2019, she published a video op-ed with the New York Times that brought down the Nike Oregon Project and Alberto Salazar. It lit a fire and this book is also lighting a firestorm as well. This was a really fun conversation. I was working in specialty running retail when Mary exploded onto the scene, so it was just really cool to chat with her. Part of the appeal for her coming on this show was to talk about the writing, which she’s not really going to experience on this book tour, which will primarily be on the running shows. She was very generous with her time and we talked for almost 90 minutes on topics like: Her love of Hemingway Procrastination Writing in the present tense The benefits of reading when you’re writing Finishing as a skill Not writing perfectly Sticking to artificial deadlines Seasonality in writing Support networks Starting from pure anger The monetization of fake advocacy And the one sentence she wrote that I wish I wrote Mary is a medical student now at STanford University and basically runs for fun. This episode will pair well with my conversations with Maggie Mertens, Christine Yu, Lauren Fleshman and Renee Hess. I had a real blast talking to her and I think you’l enjoy as well. Parting shot on my marathon experience, but for now, here’s the super cool Mary Cain.
"In the case of being a storyteller, I keep a document that I call my nonfiction compost pile. I keep little snippets of things that I've heard but it didn't really dive deeper into it. When you have other things to fall back on, it's easier to to pivot and say, 'Okay, this one didn't work out.' If you really believe in a story, you're going to find somebody else who believes in it too," says Nick Davidson, whose "Big Game" is this month's featured Atavist story. We’ve got Nick Davidson (@nickgdavidson on IG) returning to the pod because he has within the span of about two years landed ANOTHER story with our dear friends at the Atavist Magazine. Nose to tail, this is one of the best Atavist pods you’re going to hear. I don’t know what was in the air, but Jonah Ogles, the lead editor, and Nick, were in the zone. I’m very excited for you to sink into this one for reasons I think that’ll be clear once you sit with it. Head to magazine.atavist.com to read the story and consider subscribing, and no, I don’t get kickbacks and I, in fact, pay for my own subscription, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Nick’s story chronicles the undercover operation to take down dozens of poachers in the San Luis Valley of southern Colorado. The federal agent at the heart of it, George Morrison, goes undercover and what follows is a riveting story that raises all kinds of questions and blurs the lines between right and wrong. It's titled: Big Game: Colorado’s San Luis Valley was a wildlife poacher’s paradise. Then an undercover federal agent arrived. Nick can be found at nickgdavidson.com . His work has appeared in Outside, Men’s Journal, Truly Adventurous, Garden & Gun, High Country News, Backpacker, VICE Sports, and Popular Science. There’s a Buddhist vibe to Nick in that he’s an eternal optimistic and he surrenders to the current, not in a passive way, I know that sounds contradictory, but what I mean is he’s not one to frantically paddle upstream. He practices in the martial arts, which imbues him with a sense of confidence of mind and body; he preaches non-attachment, which is always good materialistically but also when it comes to stories that might not pan out. He’s of abundant mindset and he very much had me questioning my headspace, which as you know is a cesspool of toxic goo. So in our conversation, we talk about: How he established a freelance career Pitching Excitement for the story Having a positive attitude Telling the story that’s right in front of you Google alerts Writing long Developing character Beginnings and endings And when the magic happens I think you’re really going to leave this chat feeling energized at possibility. Maybe that’s just me. Order The Front Runner Welcome to Pitch Club Show notes: brendanomeara.com
"The Chronology of Water story was an 11-page story written in tiny fragments. And the MFA program I was in, they told me, that's not a story. It's a poem or something. It's a list of fragments. I'm like, 'Fuck you!' My whole enterprise has been to trouble the edges," says Lidia Yuknavitch, bestselling author of several books, most recently a memoir titled Reading the Waves. Lidia Yuknavitch makes her thrilling return to the podcast, this a live recording of the show at Gratitude Brewing in Eugene in partnership with the revival of the Northwest Review. My understanding is that there’s a significant literary prize, including creative nonfiction essays. You might want to try you filthy animals. The Northwest Review was the first place that ever published Lidia, a short, 11-page story called the Chronology of Water, so, maybe YOU could be the next Lidia Yuknavitch, though we know that’s impossible so don’t even try. She’s the author of eight books of fiction, nonfiction, and the editor of an essay collection on menopause called The Big M. She’s best known for her memoir, or anti-memoir called The Chronology of Water, the novels Thrust, Verge, and The Small Backs of Children. And her most recent nonlinear, fractured memoir is the brilliant Reading the Waves. She won the Oregon Book Award in 2016 and also stood on the TED stage and delivered a beautiful talk about misfits. Her work has appeared in Guernica, Ms., and Another Chicago Magazine. She founded the workshop series Corporeal Writing in Portland, Oregon. She is a very good swimmer. We talk about: Getting rid of the good/bad binary Writing in a group setting Inventing your own rituals The beautiful and the brutal living next to each other Taking your turn Troubling the edges Being good compost And how her market days are over and she’s cool with that You’ll want to pair this episode with 217, Lidia’s first time as well as: Episode 447: Brooke Champagne Sits Back from the Suckitude Episode 498: Sasha Bonet on Not Holding Back, and Episode 123: Elena Passarello on Listening to the book, Polaroids, and Self-Doubt Dig it, friend. Order The Front Runner Welcome to Pitch Club Show notes: brendanomeara.com
“Not to confuse journalism with newspapers. Newspapers are one set of communication methods. But it's certainly not the only one. If they have the right mindset, and that's what I try to get them to do, there are so many more opportunities. You can go out and do a podcast, or you can do a newsletter. You can't think of it as I need to work at The New York Times. You have to think of it as I need — I need — to tell stories, and I've got this curiosity.” Anthony DePalma is a journalist and professor at Columbia University. He’s the author of several books, his latest being On This Ground: Hardship and Hope at the Toughest Prep School in America. It’s published by Mariner Books. He spent 22 years as a reporter for The New York Times, and another 8 as a stringer for them, so, let’s do the math … that’s 30 years. He reported a lot on Mexico and Cuba, as well as Albania, Guyana, and Suriname. You can find him at anthonydepalma.com and on the Facebooks and Substacks, at anthontyrdepalma Anthony DePalma has been all over the world telling true stories. He’s the author of The Cubans, City of Dust, The Man Who Invented Fidel, and Here: A Biography of the New American Continent. In this conversation we talk about: How not to confuse journalism with newspapers The NEED to tell stories The stunning lack of curiosity among young journalists Not wearing headphones on walks Accelerated intimacy Challenge of being of satisfied with the writing Still being a WIP What to do when you can’t be everywhere at once Cutting 30-40% of his ms Radical pragmatism What makes St. Benedict’s tough And how grafting apple trees is like writing Order The Front Runner Welcome to Pitch Club Show notes: brendanomeara.com
"When I was writing the book, I used a lot of my interest in art criticism and nature writing to get cross pollinate into my sports writing. And I really try not to fall into a rut and just read only adjacent to my own subject or my own field," says Giri Nathan, author of Changeover: A Young Rivalry and a New Era of Men’s Tennis. Today we have Giri Nathan (@giricube on IG), he is a staff writer/cofounder of Defector and the author of Changeover: A Young Rivalry and a New Era of Men’s Tennis. It’s one of the best books I’ve read in the last couple years. It’s funny and voicey and if David Foster Wallace’s tennis writing made sweet, sweet love to John McPhee’s Levels of the Game, you get Changeover. How Giri is able to illustrate why Carlos Alcaraz and Jannik Sinner are so captivating and capable of inheriting the mantle held by Roger Federer, Rafa Nadal, and Novak Djokavic (who’s still going) is a triumph. This book may very well be the future of sports biography in that access to principal figures is almost impossible so you have to approach your subject more with a critical eye, like an art critic, and we talk about that … Giri Nathan’s work has appeared in New York Magazine, The NYT Book Review, The Believer, and National Geographic. He made the 2025 edition of the Year’s Best Sports Writing and The Best American Food & Travel Writing. In this conversation we talk about: Him taking John McPhee’s CNF class at Princeton Art criticism and nature writing as influences for Changeover Losing fandom The relationship to personality and style Writing from contemporaneous excitement Writing the fun scenes The insider-outsider perspective And keeping a running list of adjectives so he doesn’t repeat himself Really fun stuff here. Order The Front Runner Welcome to Pitch Club Show notes: brendanomeara.com
"I think, like all writers, I will feel an itch that I have to scratch. There will be an idea in my head that I've got to get down on paper, whether I follow through with it or not," says R. Renee Hess, author of Blackness is a Gift I Can Give Her: On Race, Community, and Black Women in Hockey. Who do we have this week? It’s R. Renee Hess, but you can all her Renee, of Black Girl Hockey Club. She wrote the essay collection Blackness is a Gift I can Give Her: On Race, Community, and Black Women in Hockey. It’s published by McClelland & Stewart. After Renee finished her schooling and got a job and had some money, she sought to find a sport to follow that cut against the grain. Instead of baseball, football, or basketball, she thought, maybe hockey and it didn’t take long to realize that there very few Black people on the ice and in the stands. And even fewer Black women in the stands. In 2018, she launched Black Girl Hockey Club, a nonprofit organization that focuses on equity and including for Black women in ice hockey. Renee was named one of three finalists for the NHL’s Willie O’Ree Community Hero Award in 2021 for positively impacting the community, culture, or society through the sport of hockey. Her work has appeared in Black Nerd Problems, Spectrum Magazine, and Racebaitr. You can learn more about Renee and her work at blackgirlhockeyclub.org and find her on the socials at @blackgirlhockeyclub In this conversation we talk about: Tackling other genres Short Fiction Reading as a writer Going back to the classics What sustains the writing Taking representation further And focusing inward vs. outward in her BGHC work Really fun conversation about the important work she’s doing and the work she draws inspiration from. Order The Front Runner Welcome to Pitch Club Show notes: brendanomeara.com
