When the Permian Oceans Stopped Breathing
Show notes
What the episode covers
252 million years ago, Pangaea sat surrounded by a single vast ocean where tropical surface waters climbed past 38-40°C and oxygen levels collapsed, setting the stage for the Permian-Triassic extinction. This episode of Fault Lines puts a new study claiming to have "solved" the Great Dying on trial, asking whether one explanation can really account for a catastrophe that killed 96% of marine species and 70% of land animals.
Ola and Amara work through the competing suspects, including Siberian Traps volcanism, hydrogen sulfide poisoning, and ocean acidification, then debate whether nine living species can reliably stand in for organisms extinct for a quarter-billion years. They also examine why an ocean-based hypoxia model struggles to explain such heavy land losses, and what Sperling's warning about modern warming trajectories means for how seriously we take Permian-level comparisons today. Listeners will come away understanding both the strengths and the gaps in current explanations for Earth's largest mass extinction.
Timeline
In this episode
7 moments worth skipping to. The timecodes match the player above.
- 0:15Introduction
- 2:10Pangaea, 252 Million Years Ago
- 4:46The Prosecution Calls Its Star Witness
- 6:57The Other Suspects Still in the Room
- 9:57Ola and Amara Fight Over the Verdict
- 12:28Why a 252-Million-Year-Old Autopsy Matters Now
- 14:10Outro
Quick answers
Straight from the episode
The questions this one settles, without the listen.
- What caused the Great Dying 252 million years ago?
- The episode explains that a carbon dioxide pulse flipped a once-cool, well-oxygenated ocean on Pangaea into tropical waters exceeding 38-40°C with collapsing oxygen levels, triggering mass extinction. Competing factors like Siberian Traps volcanism, hydrogen sulfide poisoning, and ocean acidification are also discussed as contributing suspects.
- How many species died in the Great Dying?
- The Great Dying wiped out about 96% of marine species and 70% of land animals, though the losses were uneven—brachiopods and crinoids were nearly erased while clams and snails were roughly half spared.
- Does the new marine hypoxia study fully explain the Great Dying?
- No. Amara points out the PNAS study only tested two of the three ocean stressors it names, and Ola notes that 70% of land extinctions can't be explained by seawater oxygen loss, leaving the extinction only half-explained rather than fully solved.
- Can modern species be used to understand ancient extinct organisms?
- The hosts debate this directly—Ola challenges the Stanford study's method of using nine living species as proxies for creatures that died 252 million years ago, questioning whether modern stand-ins can reliably represent ancient physiology.
- What's the difference between the trigger and mechanism of the Great Dying?
- Amara distinguishes between what triggered the extinction event (like volcanic activity or CO2 pulses) and the mechanism that carried out the killing (such as ocean hypoxia), arguing these are separate questions that shouldn't be conflated in 'solved' claims.
- Could warming today reach Permian-Triassic extinction levels?
- The episode closes by citing researcher Sperling's ScienceAlert warning that worst-case warming trajectories could approach Permian-Triassic levels, though the hosts note there is still time to act to avoid that outcome.
Transcript
The full conversation
Every word of the episode, 1,988 of them, in the order they were said.
Read the transcriptHide the transcript
OlaWelcome back to Fault Lines. Picture Pangaea—one continent, one ocean (Panthalassa), and tropical surface water pushing past thirty eight, maybe forty degrees Celsius.
AmaraThat's bathwater—that's soup.
OlaSoup with almost no oxygen left in it, two hundred and fifty two million years ago.
AmaraOkay, so today we're doing something new—we've put Chicxulub on trial before. The asteroid, the dinosaurs.
OlaRight; today the descendants bigger—the Great Dying, ninety six per cent of marine species gone, seventy per cent of land animals.
AmaraAnd Ola's already got his notebook out.
OlaGuilty—because a new study just walked in claiming they finally solved it.
AmaraSolved, as in case closed?
OlaThat's what we're going to test.
AmaraThere's a lineup of suspects, too-Siberian Traps, hydrogen sulfide, ocean acidification-and I don't think they all get equal blame.
OlaThey don't; and here is what bugs me: how do you explain Seventy per cent of land deaths with an ocean argument?
AmaraPlot twist! Maybe you can't.
OlaWhich is why we're going to argue about it properly.
AmaraOh, we are absolutely arguing about it.
OlaAnd whether Nine Nine living species can really stand in for animals that died a quarter billion years ago.
AmaraI have thoughts on that.
OlaI figured, Follow the incentives, not the rhetoric; same for extinct clams as it is for politicians.
AmaraSomehow you always get pickleball logic into paleontology.
OlaIt's about visibility and patience, same rules.
AmaraWell, let's see if this case actually holds up. Ola set the scene properly—what did this ocean actually look like?
OlaPicture one continent, Pangaea, one ocean wrapped around it called Panthalassa. No ice at either pole.
AmaraAnd the water at the equator eventually hits somewhere near thirty eight, maybe forty degrees Celsius. That's bath water, hot tub water, bath water that's also losing its oxygen, layer by layer, all the way to the seafloor.
OlaRight, and here's the detail that got me. Sperling's team says the ocean didn't start this way; it started cool, well-oxygenated.
Speaker 3Wait, so this wasn't a slow bake? No! Okay, so get this: according to ScienceDaily's piece today, something dumped a massive pulse of carbon dioxide into that system, and the ocean just flipped.
AmaraWe've argued Chicxulub on this show, the asteroid, the iridium, all of it. We've never put the Great Dying on trial.
Speaker 3Because it's messier. No crater, no smoking gun you can hold in your hand.
AmaraJust numbers, two hundred fifty-two million years ago, and the numbers are brutal—ninety-six percent of marine species gone, seventy percent on land.
Speaker 3But not evenly; that's the part that should bother you. Go on, get this: Brachiopods, think clam shaped filter feeders, nearly wiped out completely. Crinoids, too, those feathery sea floor animals. And clams and snails, roughly half of them made it through. Half same ocean, same event, wildly different outcomes-and get this-this dot org's coverage of the study points out Brachiopods and Crinoids had run the seafloor for something like two hundred eighty million years before this, the dominant group, since animals first showed up. And they never got that seafloor back. Never? Never! Clams and snails just took over-permanently. So why do the shell shaped losers lose and the shell shaped survivors survive? That's what the new study claims to answer. Whether it actually does, That's what we should argue about. Cold, oxygen rich ocean, one carbon pulse and a kill list that makes no obvious sense on paper. Paper! So what actually happened inside those animals' bodies when the heat hit?
OlaOkay, so get this: because this new paper doesn't just describe the die off, it actually tests the bodies of the animals involved.
AmaraWait, tested how? Like actual living animals? Living relatives, yeah. The PNAS paper came out July sixth; Marquez, Sperling, and the team, and they ran respirometry on thirty eight species, nine Paleozoic-type, twenty nine modern.
OlaPaleozoic-type meaning brachiopods, that kind of body plan still alive today somewhere?
AmaraExactly-some collected right off San Juan Island in Washington-they put them in closed chambers and watched oxygen drain out while temperature climbed, direct measurement, not just fossils and guesswork.
OlaOkay, so get this: the mechanism is warming speeds up how fast an animal burns oxygen, but warm water physically holds less of it.
AmaraRight, it's a supply and demand squeeze. Modern fauna-clams, snails, urchins-have these fast muscular metabolisms that could still scrape by. The old Paleozoic crowd: slower engines, no cushion.
OlaOkay, but here's my method question: if slow metabolism Tubalism is bad news in a crisis; why weren't brachiopods extinct already? They'd been fine for hundreds of millions of years!
AmaraWait for it-that's what ScienceAlert flagged in their writeup: "At rest, the Paleozoic fauna handled low oxygen better than the moderns.
OlaWait, better? So resting brachiopods outperform a resting clam?
AmaraYes, but the second they had to be active-feeding, moving, anything-that advantage just vanished completely.
OlaGet this, it's not that they were universally weak. Weak, they lost their one edge exactly when the ocean demanded activity.
AmaraAnd activity was the new normal: warmer water, higher metabolic demand, no rest.
OlaThat's a genuinely strange trade off to build a body plan around.
AmaraThere's a line from Sperling I keep coming back to. He told reporters, quote:
OlaShifting off the larboard bench, the def- Fans still gets witnesses; first one up, the Siberian Traps.
AmaraOh, I love this guy, volcanic super villain of the whole Permian.
OlaOkay, so get this: pretty much millions of cubic kilometers of lava plus magma sills baking straight through Siberian coal beds on the ground.
AmaraThat's heat plus coal gas cooking before it even hits daylight.
OlaRight; and the volcanic winter piece surprises people; sulfate aerosols hit first; a cold snap centuries before the heat shows up.
AmaraWait-cooling before the Great Dying gets hot?
OlaExactly; cold first, then the carbon backlog catches up, and the greenhouse spike runs for tens of thousands of years.
AmaraWhistle-killer changes weapons mid crime.
OlaWitness two, hydrogen sulphide, the Euxenia case.
AmaraToxic water, no oxygen, full of sulphur bacteria.
OlaGreen sulphur bacteria biomarkers specifically, they only live in water with zero oxygen and hydrogen sulphide. Lee Kumps upwelling model has that gas rising onto the shelves and killing everything it touches. And there's a land version: malformed pollen; that's the ozone argument. Deformed spores as evidence the gas reached the stratosphere and- You then tore a hole in it.
AmaraSo this crosses on to land, too!
OlaIt tries to; witness three is already sitting in the room, honestly-acidification. The PNAS paper behind the Stanford study says the ocean warmed, lost oxygen, and got more acidic.
AmaraThree symptoms.
OlaThe team tested two: heat and oxygen-acids right there in their own abstract, untouched.
AmaraSo they didn't rule it out, they just Just didn't run the test.
OlaCorrect; and then the one that bothers me most, the land problem-that extinction number from earlier-on land there's no sea water up there to
Speaker 3Why?
Oladeoxygenate.
AmaraNo hypoxia model for a tortoise.
OlaRight, no gills to suffocate. Whatever killed things on land it wasn't dissolved oxygen dropping in the ocean.
AmaraWhich means the heat hypoxia case, even if it's dead right for brachiopods
Speaker 4-
AmaraHere, Pods,
Olastill isn't the whole file—one strong witness in a room with three others still talking.
AmaraSo what's the verdict here?
OlaSplit: volcanism likely started the clock, heat and low oxygen did the killing in the water, and ozone acid still on the stand.
AmaraAnd that ocean back then, warming, losing oxygen, turning acidic, reads a little too close to this week's headlines.
OlaHmm; four witnesses, one heat and oxygen headline; next up we cross examine it.
AmaraI already know whose witness stand you're storming.
OlaBuilding on that, I keep circling back to the proxy problem.
AmaraWhich proxy problem?
OlaOkay, so get this-nine living species standing in for animals that died two hundred and fifty two million years ago-modern brachiopods speaking for brachiopods that don't exist any more.
AmaraMm-hmm.
OlaDoes that actually hold?
AmaraIt holds because the model didn't just describe the past. At last it predicted it.
OlaMeaning?
AmaraStanford's team ran the metabolic tolerances from living relatives and asked who should have died at the class level. The answer matched the actual Permian casualty list. That's a test, not a curve fit.
OlaA test built on nine data points.
AmaraNine data points that reproduce a two hundred fifty two million year old die off pattern nobody fed into the model beforehand. And that's not nothing.
OlaFine; I'll give you that it's clever.
AmaraAnd it's not built from scratch; it leans on the twenty eighteen Science paper, Penn, Deutsch, Payne, and Sperling, the metabolic index work.
OlaThe same Sperling?
AmaraSame research line, yeah.
OlaOkay, here's my actual problem: volcanism versus heat and hypoxia. Confirming the murder weapon doesn't tell you who pulled the trigger. Pull the trigger.
AmaraNo, it doesn't. The Siberian Traps stay the trigger. Heat and low oxygen are how that trigger killed things in the water; two different claims.
OlaSo when ScienceDaily's headline says "Solved," what got solved?
AmaraThe selection mechanism: why clams lived and brachiopods didn't, not the ignition source.
OlaHalf a mystery, then.
AmaraHalf a well tested mystery.
OlaI want to know what would break this. What result flips your verdict?
AmaraIf a low tolerance group had survived at high rates, or a high tolerance group went extinct anyway, either one kills the model.
OlaAnd nobody's found that yet.
AmaraNot that I've seen.
OlaBecause final nail in the coffin gets you the headline, partial confirmation of one selection mechanism doesn't.
AmaraThat's a press release problem, not a data problem.
OlaSure; but that's the incentive. Nobody gets cited for saying we narrowed it down.
AmaraThe oxygen heat mechanism earned its headline; the land animals and the trigger question didn't get one.
OlaSo we've got a strong half and a shaky half.
AmaraA verdict split right down the middle.
OlaQuick pivot back to that beach question from earlier.
AmaraTHE CLAM SHELL QUESTION.
OlaRight, Okay, so get this: ScienceDaily's framing: Today's beaches are covered in clam and snail shells because of who won two hundred and fifty two million years ago.
AmaraOkay, so get this: Clams, snails, urchins, fish-they inherited the sea floor. Their bodies handled the heat and the low oxygen; brachiopods and crinoids mostly didn't.
OlaThat selection story holds up; the trigger still Siberian Traps, still unresolved on timing.
AmaraAnd get this: Sperling, the study's lead voice, told ScienceAlert something that really stuck with me.
OlaGo on.
AmaraHe said, "Worst case warming projections ... Put us on track for Permian-Triassic levels.
Speaker 5Wow!
Olathat's a heavy sentence!
AmaraHe also said there's still time to change course.
OlaStill time!--doing a lot of work, that phrase.
AmaraIt is.
OlaSo, what moves me off the fence? Give me a hypoxia mechanism for land animals, and I'll drop the objection.
AmaraFor me, it's the trigger. Pin down how fast the Siberian Traps pushed carbon dioxide, and the timeline gets sharper.
OlaUntil when, strong on who survived, thin on why it started.
AmaraFair; but the ocean you're swimming in right now, that's the record of it.
OlaClamp! M's and snails every beach on Earth.
AmaraEvery single one.
OlaSo where does that leave us-half solved, half still open, I think.
AmaraOh, well, you just can't let the verdict sit clean, can you?
OlaThe part that got me was the beach thing-ScienceDaily's team traced today's clams and snails straight back to those Permian survivors.
AmaraRight; the ones with the tougher metabolisms; every shell you pick up is basically a 252-Million-Year-Old winner.
OlaAnd ScienceAlert's piece on Sperling's warning stuck with me: "Worst-case warming this century could edge towards those same Permian-Triassic numbers.
AmaraWhich is exactly why this one felt urgent, not just old.
OlaExactly; ancient ocean current lesson.
AmaraOkay, if this episode cracked something open for you, subscribe, leave us a review.
OlaAnd e mail us: hello@haymato.com Tell us which epoch we should argue about next.
AmaraThanks for hanging out in Panthalassa with us.
OlaUntil next time, stay curious.
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Sources
Where this came from
14 reports behind the episode. Every one of them opens where it was published.
- Scientists finally solved the mystery of Earth's greatest mass extinction | ScienceDailysciencedaily.com
- Differences in physiological tolerance to global warming caused the Permian–Triassic transition between the Paleozoic and Modern faunas | PNASpnas.org
- Earth's Biggest Mass Extinction Reveals Chilling Parallels to Today's World : ScienceAlertsciencealert.com
- Three critical factors in the end-Permian mass extinction | ScienceDailysciencedaily.com
- Siberian Traps likely culprit for end-Permian extinctionnews.mit.edu
- End-Permian Marine Mass Extinction Caused by Increased Temperatures, Oxygen Loss: Study | Sci.Newssci.news
- Researchers confirm cause of Earth’s biggest mass extinction | Stanford Reportnews.stanford.edu
- Global Warming Permanently Rebuilt Earth’s Oceans During The Great Dyingabovethenormnews.com
- Researchers link the mass extinction of once-dominant marine groups to intolerable heat, diminished oxygen in oceansphys.org
- Differences in physiological tolerance to global warming caused the Permian-Triassic transition between the Paleozoic and Modern faunas - PubMedpubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
- Earth's Biggest Mass Extinction Reveals Chilling Parallels to Today's Worldyahoo.com
- Researchers confirm cause of Earth’s biggest mass extinction | Geology Pagegeologypage.com
- Researchers confirm cause of Earth’s biggest mass extinction | Stanford Doerr School of Sustainabilitysustainability.stanford.edu
- Why the Beach Gives You Clam Shells, Not Brachiopods: Scientists Confirm What Killed Off Earth’s Ancient Oceansscientificinquirer.com
