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Welcome to the The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped, a podcast for anyone who is going through or curious about spiritual emergency, existential crisis, or the dark night of the soul. Fiona Robertson and her guests share their experiences of being in - and emerging out of - this lonely and sometimes terrifying terrain, without glossing over the realities. They discuss - amongst many other things - how it relates to trauma, illness, embodiment, spiritual teachings and ideas about awakening, and the state of the wider world. Expect openness, honesty, love, groundedness, nuance, laughter, and a lack of dogma. New episodes on the first of each month. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com
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Julie’s dark night – or her “descent into the belly of the whale” – first began when she lost her mother while pregnant with her daughter. “It just snowballed from one bad event to another,” and she was diagnosed with severe post-partum depression. Eventually, feeling “lost and alone,” she began seeking, “looking for a way to find solace.” Believing herself to be fundamentally flawed – as she’d been conditioned to believe by an authoritarian Christian upbringing – it took many years before she realised that “seeking was taking me away from myself,” and slowly began to turn towards herself. Amongst many other things, Julie and I talk about being forced to stop; all the “good girl stuff” like keeping the peace and learning to perform; and the transgressive nature of carving out space and time for ourselves. We discuss eventually seeing the extent of our fawning; becoming aware of the pain of self-betrayal; and coming back to loving ourselves. We touch on knowing the inherent value of everything and everyone; the importance of calling back our rejected parts; and the need for stillness and slowing down. We also mention the “mystery larger than us that knows the way”; the sacredness of life; and loving weird insects. Julie Freeman is a semi-retired psychotherapist, artist, feminist, spiritual seeker, highly sensitive person, recovering codependent and would-be writer. Her article, Dark Night of the Soul in Three Acts , is on Substack . She is the co-founder of Speak Up Sister, an international organization dedicated to helping women and girls build confidence, safety, resilience, and assertiveness for the advancement of gender equality and human rights world wide. Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Julie was already a philosopher and psychoanalyst when her dark night began. In questioning her experience of depression, she came up with what she calls negative practice or negative philosophy, “installing places where negativity and suffering can be encountered without escaping into positivity.” Amongst many other things, we discuss depression as a perspective on and compassion to the world; trauma as an initiation into the knowing of the too-muchness and horror of reality; and the concept of social death. We talk about the importance of truly witnessing horror, rather than trying to find solutions to it; trying to unhappen the past; and the end of hope. We touch on the idea of motherhood, both existentially and physically; being blamed, and accepting blame; and the pain of our children’s pain. We mention the radical transformations of labour, menopause, and aging; the idea of the therapy session as a funeral for what’s being lost; and the dark night as a time during which “you hold the world for a while.” Julie cites the work of Susan Brison, and her account of rape; she “imposes” some of Heidegger’s philosophy, and describes her idea of being-with-towards-death; and she questions the philosophical notion of the subject. Dr Julie Reshe is a philosopher, and the author of a negative psychoanalytic approach. She holds the position of a Visiting Professor at University College Cork and University College Dublin, and is also a Director of the Institute of Psychoanalysis, Global Center for Advanced Studies. She is the author of Negative Psychoanalysis for the Living Dead: Philosophical Pessimism and the Death Drive ; Death and Love: Psychoanalytic and Philosophical Perspectives (co-edited with Todd McGowan), and Negative Essays on Death, Love, and Depressive Realism . Her essay on Ukrainian war widows is on Aeon. Connect with Julie Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Julie cites Susan Brison’s book, Aftermath: Violence and the Remaking of a Self . If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Allison’s dark night began with an eating disorder, depression, and “lifelessness” when she was twenty. She found a spiritual wellbeing class in the dance studio of a local college, and began “to become ready to face what it was.” Very gradually, she started to explore the “inner beast,” meeting it and letting it unravel through movement. Eventually, she built the capacity to stay with the “mini dark night” spirals, which continue to this day. Amongst many other things, we talk about being paralysed in the dark night and how we might start to move, even slightly; beginning to follow the threads of what’s here; and the dark night as an “instigator of inquiry.” We discuss sensing into what wants to move, and how; dancing with beliefs and conditioning; and not “digging for trauma.” We touch on awe, unknowing and collaboration; being good listeners; and trusting “the greater mysterious thing.” We mention the relief of naming what’s here; the unpredictable unravelling of layers; and the moments of “oh, no wonder.” We also delve into going to the bottom of the well and not knowing if we’ll come back out; living in a fabricated existence; and giving what’s here a voice. Allison Pagano has created a body of work – Embodied Dance – that bridges movement, somatics, and energy medicine. Born from over twenty five years of exploration, her work centres on the truth that the body is an intelligent guidance system. She has been a Professor of Dance at several US universities, and has undertaken many somatic trainings. She lives, works and dances in Brunswick Heads, Australia. Connect with Allison Instagram Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Following on from our previous conversation in Episode 27, Fiona and I dive into shame. We begin with our understanding of the possible evolutionary purpose of shame, and how and when it becomes toxic and harmful. We talk about how shame “gets put on us”; how any kind of abuse is inherently shaming; and how we end up feeling the disowned shame of those who perpetrate shameful behaviour. We touch into the self-abandonment that comes when we’re shamed such that we feel there is something inherently wrong with us; feeling shame when the natural reaction to our circumstances would be anger; the layering or compounding of shame – including feeling shame for feeling shame; and how shame festers in isolation. Amongst many other things, we also discuss how shame distorts the lens through which we see ourselves; being crippled with shame; and how it often dissipates “in togetherness.” We mention how the inner critic develops – in part – to avoid further shaming by being “good” and behaving according to the rules, and how in the dark night the rules “start to wash off.” Finally, we move into belonging to ourselves; gaining self-authority, dignity and trust in our own knowing; and giving shame “a seat at the table.” Fiona Matalon is a somatic psychotherapist. She offers a holistic approach to those who are looking to deepen their relationship to themselves and to live a life that is led by their heart, soul and inner knowing. In sessions, together with her clients, she uses the intelligence of the body to allow a deeper exploraton that goes beyond the everyday mind. She brings her own deep lived experience and continuous learnings into her practice. Connect with Fiona Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Fiona Matalon cites The Relationship Grid developed by Terry Real. Fiona Robertson mentions Gisèle Pelicot, author of A Hymn to Life: Shame has to Change Sides . She also mentions her blog post, On Shame and Sharing . If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Bill’s dark night began after a period of upheaval, in which he lost his long-standing relationship and his previously-successful business. Having met his new partner, and terrified of being loved, he began to face a lifetime of abandonments, and all the versions of himself that he’d made in order to survive them. A profound period of intensity followed – “divine spiritual psychedelic writhing intensity” – during which his survival identities began to unravel, and his “made self” collapsed. Amongst many other things, Bill and I discuss the caution required to talk about our experiences; the death throes of the hope that we might eventually become enough; and trying to become what we thought we needed to be. We talk about trying to make better versions of ourselves; spiritualising and condescension veiled as kindness; and the doorway of not knowing. We also touch on using knowledge as a way to try to be safe; how the “echoes of patterns” and the unwinding continue; and developing “spiritual musculature.” Finally, we mention getting ourselves out of the way; being shown the beliefs that “we’re hanging on to”; acknowedging that “sometimes, shit hurts”; and ultimately having “the willingness to walk through it.” Bill Newgent writes and coaches about unlearning – helping exhausted high-achievers stop earning their worth and remembering they already have it. Drawing from decades of study, spiritual training, and lived experience of building and losing everything, his approach integrates Jungian psychology, masculine-feminine balance, and the recognition that what we seek isn’t missing – it’s hidden beneath our identities and the beliefs we build around them. He writes as a fellow traveller, not guru, and embraces real-world spirituality. His spiritual memoir, Unlearning Myself: A Journey Back to Inner Wisdom and Peace , is available now, and was written as an invitation or companion for those who are willing. Connect with Bill Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
*Please note that this episode contains descriptions of suicidal ideation. Tam had a series of dark nights, the “big one” being a spiritual emergency and its aftershocks that started when she was in her late twenties. Beset with social issues, including homelessness, her “grip on consensus reality” began to falter. Soon, a “curtain came down” in her conscious mind and she found herself in a horrifying hellscape, facing her deepest fears. Having been told she was evil from a young age, the child part of her was “still there and still terrified.” Trying to navigate her way through a psychosis diagnosis, doctors, and medication, she eventually met a psychiatrist who saw her as a human being and turned her life around. Amongst many other things, Tam and I talk about the multitudes within; the nature of the shadow and the stuff that gets “pushed beneath the surface”; and having incredible insights into “the secrets of the universe.” We touch on the moment in which “any possibility of suicide was gone”; rediscovering our indigeneity and becoming one with the land; and “the lid flying off the pressure cooker.” We discuss the nature of spiritual emergency and its preciousness and meaning; flipping between realities and dimensions, and the Kahlil Gibran quote that carried her through. Tam Martin Fowles is a London-based nana, wife, mum, writer, international facilitator, trainer, lecturer and consultant. A psychosis diagnosis at age 29, which she later came to understand as a spiritual emergency, has informed her life and work, engendering a fascination with the phenomenology of consciousness, and commitment to challenging the paradigm surrounding mental health distress. Tam is founding director of Hope in the Heart CIC and a co-founder of the MadPsychedelics Collaboratory . Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Tam quotes this line from Kahlil Gibran’s poem, On Pain. “ Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding.” If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Letia’s dark night of the soul was preceded by the realisation that she hadn’t been honouring “a big part” of herself. Already initiated as a Navajo Medicine Woman, she eventually embarked on the path of sacred sexuality, and discovered “the missing piece” – eros, the energy of desire and creation. She then spent a year doing deep shadow work, facing her self-sabotaging behaviours and old identities. The process culminated in a profound dark night experience, during which she had no choice but to surrender as her body released. She found herself spontaneously forgiving her brother’s murderer, and subsequently went through a rebirth more painful than actual birth; “I was giving birth while being born.” Amongst many other things, we talk about the realities of shadow work, including weaving and failing; the “spiritual flu” and how “hard core emotional expression” depletes the body; and feeling hollow. We touch on mourning the only version of ourselves we’ve ever known; building a new self; and the importance of boundaries and anchors. We ponder on the true nature of forgiveness, and why it can’t be forced; meeting our inner child; and collective and individual soul sickness. We also mention (and laugh about) having to learn patience; moving slowly, and coming back to ourselves. Letia Perry is a Navajo Medicine Woman, breathwork coach, shadow work guide, Foundation Training instructor, and Sacred Sexual Healer with over 10,000 hours of holding space. She delivers what many call the most powerful breathwork experience in the world. Author of Sacred Flirtship and creator of the world's first handmade Navajo language busy book for children, she bridges ancient indigenous wisdom with embodied healing, guiding souls through the deepest transformations. Connect with Letia Connect with Letia on Instagram Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Andrea has had a few dark nights, the first of which were focussed around an eating disorder. Growing up in a family – and a culture – obsessed with appearance, she struggled with self-criticism and rampant perfectionism, and was “lost in shame for decades.” She searched for help for a long time, and eventually came to realise that, while she had believed her body to be the problem, it was actually her thinking that was disordered. Gradually, “the iceberg of programmes and self-hatred began to melt.” Andrea’s second dark night almost took her life. She got physically sick, and “was in a puddle of zero energy.” Slowly, she began to hear her body’s whispers, and came out of the grip of perfectionism into kindness. Amongst many other things, Andrea and I talk about feeling the buried feelings that “got stuffed down”; some things needing to die and others needing to be born; and discovering our innate wisdom. We touch on tending to the breed that we are; honouring our nervous systems; and the biochemistry of old programming. We also discuss borrowing hope from those who “have been where you are and gotten through it”; realising that something is being asked of you; and blooming where we’re planted. Andrea Wachter , LMFT, is a licensed psychotherapist, author, and meditation teacher who is passionate about helping people overcome anxiety, depression, disordered eating, body image issues, and relationship conflicts. Drawing from professional expertise, personal recovery, and a good dose of humor, Andrea brings compassion and practical tools to her work with others. She offers a variety of affordable online courses and free guided meditations that provide a wide range of strategies for healing, growth, and meaningful change. Connect with Andrea Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Anna’s dark night began in 2012. Facing a potential cancer diagnosis, her system – which had been in survival mode since childhood and her mother’s illness – crashed overnight. She experienced intense anxiety, terror and suffering, and thought she was going crazy – she “had no clue what was happening.” After six months, a friend lent her a book by Eckhart Tolle, and she started to understand that she was reconnecting with a deeper part of herself. Slowly, she realised that she was carrying intergenerational trauma, and that there was an intelligence to the process. Amongst many other things, Anna and I talk about being unravelled and undone; the role of resistance; and learning how to stay with ourselves. We mention the uniqueness of each person’s journey, and how much we stumbled around; gradually moving towards greater wholeness; and touching into the deeper mystical level. We discuss meeting the shadow; wanting to be perfect; and the compassion that comes with seeing the actual nature of things. We also talk about our individual and collective madness, and how “we’re waking up from thousands of years of insanity.” Finally, we touch on love and power; becoming self-led; and knowing that – ultimately – the dark night is good news. Anna Teggelaar guides people in self-healing and embodied inner work, helping them to make the process their own. Her work is rooted in the self-healing capacity of consciousness, and supports the integration of conditioning and stored emotional energy, so you can live more freely and from the heart. What began as her dark night of the soul in 2012 grew into a deep passion for the transformation of human consciousness. She offers online sessions, writes about healing, and has developed three practical guides to make inner work accessible and grounded in everyday life. Connect with Anna Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
A year on from our conversation in Episode 6, Hany and I explore the organic movement that comes after the dark night. Amongst other things, we talk about moving beyond the shoulds to flesh, blood and bone; the difference between presence and being present; and telling and untelling the story. We discuss the ebb and flow of the space of unconditionality, and how it eventually anchors itself within us; the shattering of identities – “you’re losing the masks that you have put on to survive life”; and how we come face to face with our “inner architecture”. We touch on discovering a sense of resolve or steadfastness rather than effort or force; our bodies saying stop; and living in sensations rather than in concepts. We share our experience of self-betrayal, and how it’s abated now that we’re for ourselves; how depression and anxiety resulted from losing ourselves; and the self being fully itself. We mention thresholds; becoming raw and human for the first time; and the trustworthiness of the somatic superintelligence. Finally, we describe how there’s now place for hatred as well as love; how the dark night is about integration, not elimination; and how humankind needs to come out of fragmentation into humaneness. Hany Ezzat has walked through the dark night of the soul and come out writing. A storyteller at his core, he crafts narratives that connect, challenge, and endure. With twenty-six years in branding and creative strategy, he builds with meaning - whether in business or in life. Reinvention isn’t a phase for him; it’s the way forward. R.A.W. is the work shaped from his own process — a way of witnessing people return to themselves without theatrics. The rest is still unfolding. Connect with Hany Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Fiona quotes John Keats’s 1817 letter to his friend Benjamin Bailey: “O for a life of Sensations rather than of Thoughts!” Hany quotes Kahlil Gibran’s line from The River Cannot Go Back : “It is said that before entering the sea a river trembles with fear.” If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Fiona’s dark night began during Covid. After a sudden break up, she went to Mexico, and something started shifting – her “soul wanted solitude.” She felt like she was losing her mind as her whole way of being was slowly unearthed. After a while, she moved to Montreal, and then to an island; there was a pull towards “the soil in which I could dismantle and decompose.” During this time, she encountered her deepest attachment and existential woundings, and gradually found solace in not knowing. Amongst many other things, we talk about what happens when the ‘should’ structure falls apart; starting to navigate by our bodies and hearts; and the dethroning of the mind that happens in the process. We discuss how layered the dark night is; the immense anger, grief and shame that came in; and how nothing worked “as a means to run away from it.” We touch into no longer being able to mask ourselves; becoming the wise older women that we needed; and the shock of actually being here, rather than being dissociated in some way. We also describe the gift of living it, whatever it is in the moment; and discovering simple, organic resources along the way. Fiona Matalon is a somatic psychotherapist. She offers a holistic approach to those who are looking to deepen their relationship to themselves and to live a life that is led by their heart, soul and inner knowing. In sessions, together with her clients, she uses the intelligence of the body to allow a deeper exploraton that goes beyond the everyday mind. She brings her own deep lived experience and continuous learnings into her practice. Connect with Fiona Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Fiona mentions Jeannie Zandie . If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Andrew’s dark night began in the early days of the pandemic, when a moment of spiritual insight cracked him open, and his “world started to come apart.” The person he thought he was dissolved, and he started to touch into an inner knowing that he “couldn’t go back from.” For a while, he was scared, and no longer understood who he was. Gradually, he got “comfortable sitting in this void,” and the parts of him that had been buried when he was a child started to surface. After a few years, he found himself making videos about the dark night of the soul, and related topics. Amongst many other things, we discuss the difference between the dark night and depression; realising the buried parts of us were trying to protect us; and how we discovered “a depth of love that we never thought was there.” We touch on the power that emerges from the dark night, increasing our bandwidth, and building “spiritual muscles”; radical allowing and radical responsibility; and being more than “these fragile meat-sacks.” We also talk about developing inner confidence; loving and embracing the parts we’ve been hiding; and how the dark night becomes an ongoing evolution or ascension. Andrew Reid has spent more than 22 years in the real estate industry. Nearly a year into the global pandemic in 2020, he experienced what many spiritual traditions call a dark night of the soul, a period that led him to question long-held beliefs about success, identity, and purpose. That journey sparked a deep exploration into consciousness, personal transformation, and the human potential to unlock our innate powers of creation. Today, through his platform Open Heart Living, Andrew shares insights on navigating life’s darkest moments and using them as catalysts for awakening, coherence, and meaningful change. Connect with Andrew Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Following on from our previous conversation in episode 16, Kristy and I explore the mirroring of individual and collective dark nights, and how we’re currently living in a moment in which “the public body is waking up to the control mechanisms.” We talk about the hierarchical structures – both within and around us – that are desperate to hold onto power; the power-over conditioning that teaches us to ignore our own natural intelligence; and the nature of empire, and how it requires us to be numb or deadened. We touch on – amongst many other things – reconnecting with the ancient aliveness that lives within us; the depravity of empire and how it impacts our nervous systems; and what happens when “we get to see the way the state has become internalised.” We discuss clarity, and the trust that comes from jumping into the abyss; becoming our own prison guards, and our unintentional complicity in our own degradation; and beginning to see that a much better life is possible, both individually and collectively. We also wonder at following the thread of the natural intelligence; the importance of dismantling both inner and outer empires for future generations; and wanting to experience how good it could be. Kristy Johnsson has spent over 20 years diving deep into the historical, cultural, and spiritual roots of our collective crisis, doing federally-funded research in Alaska and teaching college students in Arizona, before ending up practicing somatic ecotherapy as a licensed therapist. She has been facilitating somatic sessions for a decade and is now using a somatic approach to help people turn the emotions they feel about world issues into power, insight, and creativity. Connect with Kristy Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Kristy mentions US Secretary of State Marco Rubio’s speech at the Munich Security Conference in February 2025. She also mentions Goliath’s Curse: The History and Future of Societal Collapse by Luke Kemp. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Jax and I begin with remembering the physicality of our bodies, and how African cultures intimately know the strength and magnificence of the body. We talk about the dark night as a going down into the depths and coming back out again; as a reconnection with our ancestral lines, and “the many gifts” that come down to us from our ancestors; and as a continual spiral that we eventually learn to dance around. Jax describes how she was brought to her knees while tending to her daughter, and how they began to listen to the voices that were “talking to us on so many levels.” Amongst many other things, we also talk about the howl of the untamed within and remembering the animal that we are; the dark night being “an experience of the wrestling with what’s trying to speak to you,” and dancing with our ancestors, both metaphorically and literally. We explore the mourning that happens during the dark night; the possibilities of bringing the dark night out from behind closed doors and into community with others; and discovering that we can be with more than one truth simultaneously. And finally, Jax shares a beautiful invocation that came to her recently. Jax Bull is an interfaith minister, counsellor, breathworker, and founder of The Serenity Practice. She creates collective spaces in which people can feel real again, and where it’s safe to unravel. Once a month, she opens her house in Dorset, UK for women to bring whatever they’re carrying, and to be held in community. She also offers two free online community spaces, Community Breath Alchemy and ADHD Breathwork. Connect with Jax Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She works with many people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Jax mentions Ancestral Connections . She also cites the poem Please Call Me By My True Names, by Thich Nhat Hanh, and the song Coming Around Again , by Carly Simon. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please rate, subscribe, and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Onyi’s dark night began when cracks appeared after she was let go from her third job in a row. She could no longer ignore the incongruence between her self-concept and reality, and “a lot of the foundation of who I thought I was” began to shatter. Initially, her defensive armour fought back, but “once the floodgates opened,” her ego began to dissolve. Gradually, and with the support of a therapist, she went from being adrift at sea on a raft to building and learning how to sail a sturdy, capacious ship. Amongst many other things, we talk about the importance of radical honesty and the desire to be rooted in the truth; the sheer exhaustion that comes with having to keep the floodgates closed; and coming down into a reality deeper than rigid ideas of good and bad. We touch on understanding our trauma strategies and how they were born out of real moments; how therapy and spirituality can be used to bolster the self-concept; and how the false ego needs to be mourned. We also discuss discovering more stable foundations on which to rest ourselves; taking baby steps to grow a new self; and how our initial realisations have deepened over time. Onyi Ijeh is the host of Interesting People of Earth, a digital campfire for meaningful dialogue about life and purpose. Onyi has a background in International Development and Communications but has recently had to pivot her career due to political developments in the U.S. Onyi has taken this time to pursue her passion for storytelling and person advocacy via her tik tok @wontonamera and her podcast @interestingpplofearth . Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She works with many people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Onyi mentions Plato’s Allegory of the Cave. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please rate, subscribe, and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
For many years, Malcolm avoided both his own suffering and the suffering of the world in every way he could. Taking himself to be “a favoured son of God,” he was definitely, as he says, “on the path to being a spiritual bypasser and magical thinker.” Then in 2014, his world was completely flipped when his oldest daughter took her own life, and he had to face everything he’d been oblivious to, including his own pain and the reality of his relationships. A few years later, a second dark night was precipitated by a heart attack. On the way to the hospital, he had a moment of sublime peace which left a lasting impression. Amongst many other things, Malcolm and I talk about disillusionment and the end of naivety; the nature of true surrender and daring to jump off the edge; and how he feels “like a novice now, rather than someone on the verge of enlightenment.” We touch into the belief in being special; following the deep intelligence of the unfolding; no longer looking for external ways to assuage our loneliness; and going through nihilistic phases. We also discuss the importance of discernment; the evolution of being; and finding wisdom in unexpected places. Malcolm Stern is an individual and group psychotherapist, and the co-founder of Alternatives in London. He runs groups and teaches courses, and offers executive coaching and organisational training programmes. His approach involves finding where the heart is and helping individuals access their truth. He is also the author (with Ben Craib) of Slay Your Dragons with Compassion and (with Su Bristow) Falling in Love, Staying in Love, and he is the host of the Slay Your Dragons with Compassion podcast. Connect with Malcolm Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She works with many people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers both a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Malcolm mentions Pachelbel's Canon in D major. He also mentions Victor Frankl, the author of Man’s Search for Meaning; the Sufi teachers Hazrat Inayat Khan and Pir Vilayat Khan; the I Ching; and Dina Glouberman. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please rate, subscribe, and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Julian and I “begin before the beginning” and discuss the Christian origins of the phrase dark night of the soul. I remind him of an email he sent to me at the start of my dark night; we talk about the downward trajectory of the descent into soul, body, history, and pain, and how it is the opposite of the idea of spiritual ascent; and we describe it as an ongoing shedding of armour, ideas, expectations, shoulds, and more. Amongst many other things, we also touch on no longer being “on the old map with the old co-ordinates”; dissolution, and the collapse of the old structures; the problem with dismissing our own cultural roots; and Jesus as an archetypal story of divine embodiment. We share our experiences of serious wobbles and severe anxiety; the sudden dawning of what has previously been invisible; cleaving to suffering and the tendency to fall back; and the importance of not getting washed out of the boat. We acknowledge how tough it is to be in the dark night; we mention healing, and what that might mean in this context; and we talk about how love, sanity, and capacity slowly begin to seep in and imbue us. Julian Carlyon is the author of two books: One Earth, Three Worlds: The Pattern that Connects Dreams, Synchronicity, Physics, Homeopathy, Spirituality and Somatics, and Understanding Homeopathy, Homeopathic Understanding: Foundations of Homeopathic Philosophy and Practice. Since his early twenties, he has explored an eclectic range of disciplines, including homeopathy, transpersonal psychology, alchemy, and movement practice. He sees clients from around the world, lives in the UK, and is a father and grandfather. Connect with Julian Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Julian mentions the Diamond Approach, founded by A. H. Almaas. Julian paraphrases this quote from C. G. Jung: “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You're welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Following on from our previous conversation, Suzette and I explore the sacred wildness of life, and what it means to rediscover, re-member, and honour the sacred wild self. We talk about being in kinship with the natural world as children, and how the sacred wild self rarely conforms to societal expectations; we touch on the sense of the ancient that infuses the sacred wildness; and we discuss how the dark night is the start of the reclamation of who we are at our core. Amongst other things, we also talk about the heart space that continues to open as we remember the sacred wildness; how we can enter this space via the portals of everyday experience; and the sense of perception that "can tap us into a larger, deeper knowing." We explore how our connection to with the sacred wildness can be nurtured by getting quiet and listening; by being in nature, in whatever form nature is accessible to us; and by being with others who honour the truth of who we are and what we're experiencing in the moment. Finally, we touch on the longing to return to the sacred wildness, and its calling to us, because it wants us back. Suzette Winona Summers has been on a conscious healing and awakening path for most of her life. She is a sacred circle weaver, shamanic practitioner, Ecstatic Dance Journey Facilitator, and cosmic midwife/coach who works with both individuals and communities. She offers shamanic healing sessions, craniosacral sessions, and intuitive massage, and she also weaves sacred circles and ceremonies, offering both ecstatic dance journeys and heart-centred talking circles. She lives in Louisville, Kentucky. Connect with Suzette Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona Mentions Suzette mentions Toko-pa Turner's books, Belonging: Remembering Ourselves Home and The Dreaming Way: Courting the Wisdom of Dreams. She also mentions Michael Meade, and cites Anais Nin's quote, "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." If you've enjoyed this episode, please rate, subscribe, and share. Thank you! You're welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Suzette has had many dark nights of the soul, the most recent of which began when her oldest daughter passed away seven years ago. Her heart cracked open as she was plunged into a profound initiation, a kind of natural vision quest; from that point on, she has been “walking in multiple worlds.” Amongst many things, we talk about being humans subject to the laws of nature, rather than machines that are constantly expected to be or do more; the unfurling that happens as we move towards what we’ve previously tried to stay away from; and the aloneness and seclusion of the dark night. We discuss the overlap between grief and the dark night; how visceral both experiences are, and their similarities to childbirth; and being in the place of “nope” where it is impossible to imagine how we will get through the terrain we’re in. We acknowledge the times of inaction or waiting that happen in the dark night, and how hard it can be to change our behaviour. We also touch into stepping back into our bodies; rediscovering our wild, untamed, undomesticated selves; how little lights can unexpectedly guide us; and embracing the fullness and miraculousness of ourselves. Suzette Winona Summers has been on a conscious healing and awakening path for most of her life. She is a sacred circle weaver, shamanic practitioner, Ecstatic Dance Journey Facilitator, and cosmic midwife/coach who works with both individuals and communities. She offers shamanic healing sessions, craniosacral sessions, and intuitive massage, and she also weaves sacred ceremonies, offering both ecstatic dance journeys and heart-centred talking circles. She lives in Louisville, Kentucky. Connect with Suzette Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
Before his dark night began, Bart was a highly intellectual physician with no interest whatsoever in spirituality. He had, as he says, “worked for a long time cutting off bodily feelings.” Then an injury ended his ability to function, leaving him depressed and unable to work. When he saw an eight-foot angel fish at the end of his bed, and began to dream vividly, he was prompted to venture into the imaginal and somatic realms. Since then, he has explored his inner terrain in a variety of ways including dream work, embodied inquiry, spiritual teachings, and plant medicines. Amongst other things, Bart and I talk about his identification with Iron Man, and how he shut out joy as well as pain as a little child; the ways in which insights and realisations came for him during dreams; and how his approach to his medical practice developed as his explorations continued. We also touch into how he slowly opened his heart chakra; the way that psychological pain can sometimes “feed” physical pain; and how working with bodily sensations helped in the unravelling of knots. And finally, Bart shares how, after a revelation or opening, we often also experience some kind of backlash or push back. Dr Bart Balint is a retired anesthesiologist and the author of The Giant Clam and Other Visions: An Allopathic Physician Explores Non-Ordinary States and Reconciles with Joy. Over a number of years, he has experienced a profound shift in perspective from the guilt-ridden religious beliefs that previously ruled his life to a paradigm of exploration, play, and insight. He lives with his life partner, Melanie Balint Gray, and they continue to journey together. Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence , and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart . She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors. Connect with Fiona If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit
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