Bad Mothers Podcast

Michaela Chamberlain is the author of the new book, On Resisting Women, which examines how individuals become misogynists. She shows how unrecognised misogyny infiltrates everyday life, in both public and private, shaping how we think, feel, and speak. She explores the persistence of misogyny: how it is woven into the fabric of our culture, our institutions, and our psyches. In particular, I was interested to talk to Michaela about: * How or if it is possible to eradicate misogyny * How our conception of misogyny changes as we age * The rage women feel about living in a misogynistic society, and how that is sometimes misdiagnosed due to — you guessed it — misogyny * The expectations misogyny places on women and mothers in particular, and * If it may play a role in maternal estrangement. Michaela Chamberlain trained at The Bowlby Centre and studied in the Psychoanalysis Unit at UCL. Shortly after qualifying at The Bowlby Centre in 2016, she started teaching Freud and attachment theory and became chair of The Bowlby Centre. She worked as an honorary psychotherapist in two NHS trusts for several years. She has presented clinical papers at public forums, lectures internationally, and has been published in various journals. Her debut book, Misogyny in Psychoanalysis , was released in June 2022, which explores the historical and current context of misogyny in psychoanalytic theory and clinical practice. She is in private practice in London as a psychoanalytic psychotherapist and is a supervisor and training therapist. Her book is available now from Karnac Books and is available everywhere books are sold. She’s on Instagram @michaelachamberlain_therapist . This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Asha Dore is a speech-pathologist, editor, and extremely prolific writer. Her essays and reported features have appeared in Vogue , Washington Post , McSweeneys , New York Magazine , and elsewhere . She’s also the founder and host of the literary interview podcast, Totally Biased Reviews . In this conversation, we talk about her relationship with her mother — which included some time living together in adulthood — and the moment Asha realized she needed to cut ties. We also discuss her mother’s diagnosed mental illness, Asha’s worries about inheriting that illness, and how Asha tries to be a better mother to her kids. We talk a lot about Asha’s essay for The Cut , which explains some of the dynamics at play in her relationship with her mother. I highly recommend it, and it is available here . Learn more about Asha and read more of her work on her website, https://www.ashadore.net. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to the new edition of the Bad Mothers podcast. In addition to family estrangement, we’ll now include my book club discussions with Tam - Family Estrangement , as well as interviews with other guests about their experiences with motherhood, womanhood, and more. My intention with Bad Mothers has always been to provide a place for women to be entirely themselves, whatever that is, and especially if it’s at odds with patriarchal decrees. That sometimes means we talk about genuinely “bad” mothers, but it also gives space to their daughters, women who don’t have children for any reason, or who do have kids and don’t have all the answers. It’s a place for sisters and aunts and friends to share the ways they’re hacking their way through a jungle of expectations to make their own path. And an exciting new addition: these stories will also be available as video on my Substack and on YouTube . To kick off this new format, I’m happy to share a recent book club discussion with Tam Stevens about Daddy Issues , by Katherine Angel. Watch it here: This book packs in an incredible amount of cultural references as they relate to fathers and their daughters, and Angel introduced me to several new ideas and things to consider. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

To close out season 3, I’m sharing my essay, It’s better this way, published by The Audacity on October 30, 2024. This essay is about my estrangement from my mother, my late effort to understand her as a human separate from her role as mom, and of the resolve my sisters and I shared throughout our lives. I focused on sibling estrangement this season because I wanted to understand it better. I feel very lucky that the break with my mother strengthened my connection to my sisters rather than breaking it. That is not always possible, as we’ve heard this season. I want to express my sincere gratitude to all of my guests this season, who shared such personal and emotional stories in the hope of helping others going through estrangement from family. I am so grateful for their trust in me, and in you, to listen with care and compassion. Bad Mothers will be back in the autumn with more stories from women, but with a bit broader scope. More on that soon. In the meantime, I hope you’ll join me and Tam from Family Estrangement to talk about Virginia Evans’ novel, The Correspondent , on June 23. Details are available on the Bad Mothers Substack and linked in the episode notes. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

My final guest for this season is Barbara, which is a pseudonym. Barbara’s parents died when she was young, and she is estranged from her siblings and step-mother. Her unique circumstances make it a bit more complicated for her to share her story or even be honest with some people in her life about members of her family who have some notoriety. Together, we decided to share her story anonymously. Please note there is mention of sexual assault in our discussion today. As a reminder, our next book club is June 23, and we’re reading The Correspondent by Virginia Evans. We’ll meet on Substack Live with Evolving Family at 7pm BST/2pm EDT. Join in to watch and share your thoughts in the comments. The recording will be available to paid subscribers of either Bad Mothers or Evolving Family . This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Shelly Sharon helps women who’ve been around the block with healing unpack the way a challenging relationship with their mother still holds them back today, so they can thrive in their life and career. Shelly is a trauma-informed, certified Hakomi therapist. After a childhood marked by neglect and abandonment, she turned her story on its head and built a life of purpose and healing, where she’s committed to helping women to heal their mother wound. She joined me on the podcast to discuss her own experience with sibling estrangement, what it was like growing up in an isolated, small family unit, and about her practice helping women thrive after unpacking complex mother-daughter relationships. You can learn more about her work from her website, https://www.shellysharon.com This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Last week, the long-awaited anthology, No Contact, Writers on Estrangement, was published. And lucky for us, we have its editor, the lovely Jenny Bartoy, as my guest for this episode. Jenny and I talk about her own estrangement story, as well as her vision for this anthology and the process of compiling and editing a wide variety of essays on the experience of estrangement from all sides. Jenny Bartoy is a French American editor and critic. Her writing appears in several anthologies and in such publications as Th e Boston Globe , The Seattle Times , Under the Gum Tree , Chicago Review of Books , The Rumpus , and others. She holds a master’s degree from Columbia University and lives in Tacoma, Washington. Along with the anthology, Jenny has written recently for Literary Hub with a reading list on estrangement, and Open Secrets with her own estrangement story. No Contact, Writers on Estrangement, is available now from Catapult Press. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

This week we hear from another generous person who responded to my call for stories of sibling estrangement. Jaime has been estranged from her younger brother, sister and both parents for several years. As she explains here, she learned from these relationships how to be a better mother to her daughter. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

I am a huge book nerd, so I am always looking for ways to incorporate books into my work here on the podcast, and on the Bad Mothers substack. Speaking of, on Tuesday April 28, you can join the book club chat for Katherine Angel’s Daddy Issues live on Substack. I think books — including and maybe especially novels — have the power to teach us so much about ourselves and the world around us. They help us begin to understand what it’s like to be in another’s shoes. And I think this can be true when we’re experiencing estrangement, too. I was entranced by The Original Daughter , by Jemimah Wei . It’s set in Singapore in the very recent past and centers on a small family, in particular two sisters who become estranged. I’m delighted that I got to speak to Jemimah about her beautiful novel, which is now out in paperback so if you haven’t read it yet, go get it! We avoid spoilers here as best we can. Buy The Original Daughter . Jemimah Wei was born and raised in Singapore and splits her time between Singapore and the United States. She is a National Book Foundation 5 Under 35 Honoree, winner of the William Van Dyke Short Story Prize, and formerly held the Wallace Stegner Fellowship and Felipe P. De Alba Fellowship at Stanford University and Columbia University respectively. The Original Daughter , debuted at #1 on The Straits Times bestseller list, is a Good Morning America Book Club pick, and a New York Times Editors’ Choice. The Original Daughter won the Country Award for the Chommanard International Women’s Literary Award, was longlisted for the Dublin Literary Award, and named a Best Book of Spring by TIME , Foreign Policy, Harper’s Bazaar , Elle , Vogue , and more. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

I put out a call on a few social media support groups for people willing to share their sibling estrangement stories. I’ve heard from a lot of estranged adults, and read plenty of stories. This one is similar to in many ways — we can always see patterns in abusive and neglectful families — but Sharon’s story also feels especially cruel. Her resilience and thoughtfulness about this experience is truly inspiring. I’m grateful to everyone willing to share their stories in the hope that it helps even a single listener to feel less alone. Please be aware that this episode contains discussion of physical, emotional and sexual abuse. Listen with care. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

This week, my book club partner and Family Estrangement Substack author Tam and I are discussing the novel, Mother in the Dark by Kayla Maiuri. We read it for the Estrangement Book Club, and since it includes parental and sibling estrangement, I thought it would fit nicely with this season. The novel was published in 2022 and is narrated by a twenty-something living in New York City, who has been out of contact with her parents and younger sisters for several years. When she gets a call because something has happened back home, she recalls a troubled childhood and struggles with whether to return the call or stay away. *This discussion is focused mainly on the estrangement dynamics at play within the novel, and we tried to avoid any major spoilers, but there are some included in this conversation. Tam and I will discuss Daddy Issues by Katherine Angel on April 28 — live on Substack at 2PM EDT/7PM BST. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

This season, we’re taking a closer look at sibling estrangement — how it happens, what it feels like, and how to move forward. When I put out a call for those willing to talk about their experiences, I received several generous replies from people who genuinely wanted to help others by sharing their stories. This week, we hear from April. Learn more about Together Estranged here. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Sandra Ann Miller is a certified Happiness, Relationship, and Health & Wellness coach, and Trauma-Informed Abundance Coach. But she doesn’t like to call herself a coach. She is The Happyist , and helps people to cultivate happiness from within. This is something she’s had to do for herself, too, having grown up in an emotionally abusive family, from which she has been estranged for many years. Today she tells us the ways her relationship with her younger brother changed throughout childhood due to her mother’s treatment of them both, and how and when she decided to cut ties with her family. You can find her on The Happyist Substack , a paid community for those who want to get unstuck and grow their holistic happiness in an affordable way. She also hosts the Happy Rebel Podcast , the place to “get happy and disrupty,” which is focused on undoing anger and fear. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

In keeping with the tradition of inviting one of my family members on the podcast each season, today I’m speaking to my dad. I truly value the trust and honesty that my guests offer in this space, so it’s important to me to share aspects of my personal story, too. My dad has three of his own siblings, and I remember him telling me throughout my childhood that the only constant in my life would be my sisters. Given that my mother often tried to divide me and my sisters, I feel fortunate that we managed to stick together. I wanted my dad to tell me where this idea about siblings came from, why he wanted so many kids, and what it’s like to be a father to all daughters. As you will see, my dad has different ideas to my own — in particular on the destructibility of the patriarchy. I really value the relationship we’ve established, in which we respect each other’s views even when we don’t agree. This is a stark comparison to many estranged kids and their parents, and I am lucky to have this with my dad even while I can’t have a relationship with my mother. This is to say that some of the ideas he espouses are unusual for the Bad Mothers space, but I think it’s a good reminder that as estranged kids, we are not averse to disagreements; we are averse to mistreatment. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

I decided the best way to kick off a season focused on sibling estrangement was to learn the dynamics at play in a narcissistic family system. Who better to talk to than Dr. Katie McKenna. Katie an accredited psychotherapist who specialises in parentification & emotional abuse. She works on breaking generational trauma, so women can have healthier relationships, by recognising everyday toxic and narcissistic communication patterns or behaviours that have become normalised, particularly in families. She is accredited by the Irish Association of Counselling & Psychotherapy. She’s a fast talker who is full of fascinating and helpful information for estranged adults like myself — so hold onto your hats! You can contact Katie or learn more about her parenting course at https://www.katiemckenna.ie/ You’re Not the Problem , which she co-wrote, is a vailable here She also has a podcast, Beyond Survival , which I’ve found enlightening and supportive. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to season 3 of the Bad Mothers podcast. In the first season of the podcast, I focused on women who are estranged from their mothers and thinking about whether they want to become mothers. The second season included more talk about motherhood – how our dogs might play a role in our choices about kids, or how we can reframe our perspective if things don’t go the way we want. I also interviewed a few other brilliant women who wrote about being estranged, being mothers, or both. This season, I’m interested in exploring sibling estrangement, particularly when it results directly from maternal estrangement. I write often about my sisters – we’re very close, and I’ve always attributed that partly to the fact that we bonded over our shared experience with our mom. But that’s not always the way it goes. I’m kicking off the season with Dr. Katie McKenna, who gives us the lay of the land when it comes to narcissistic family systems, and explains how sibling rifts can develop. Then I talk to my father, who taught me from a very young age that my sisters are my most important relationship. I wanted to understand why he thought that was an important lesson to impart, and explore whether it helped my sisters and I cope better with our mother and remain close in spite of estrangement from her. Then we get into several interviews with women who open up about their own sibling estrangements—we talk about what happened, how they’ve managed, and advice for others in the same situations. The season rounds out with writer talks on books featuring estrangement stories, and two healing professionals with advice on how to overcome these painful experiences. I hope this season offers you something useful. As always, please share your thoughts in the comments or email me at monicacardenas@substack.com . Episode 1 will be available next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Bad Mothers began as an outlet for me to write about how women can subvert their assigned scripts, particularly around motherhood. I advocate for abortion rights, reproductive justice, the right to be a “working” mom or a stay at home mom without judgement, and especially the right to not be a mom at all. When I shared an essay about how I became estranged from my mother nearly twenty years ago, I heard from many women who had a similar conflict in their lives, and I realized that in addition to the facetious “bad mother” title of my Substack, there is also room to talk about actual bad mothers — mothers who persistently let their own emotions and desires override those of their daughters. To be clear, I often argue for all women, including mothers, to be able to do just that. But in my opinion, estrangement most often occurs when the mother is simply unable to prioritize her daughter’s needs even when her daughter is asking for it directly and desperately. So, the meaning of Bad Mothers expanded, and the podcast allowed me to interview more women who had fraught or non-existent relationships with their own mothers to ask about how things fell apart, how they feel now, and whether they wanted kids of their own in the wake of that breakdown. This season, I was happy to expand the scope slightly to talk to more women who write about motherhood in a way I found compelling and hopeful. Kate Muir and Melissa Fraterrigo are what I would consider “good” mothers in that they told me about how they try to be there for their kids in the way their kids need them to be. For Kate , it was how she managed a divorce she needed in a way that prioritized her children’s emotions. Melissa nearly brought me to tears when she talked about being an imperfect mother but always being willing to apologize and own up to her fallibility: I think both these women are teaching their daughters incredibly important things about life and being a woman. And speaking of moms who are trying — how about stepmoms! My step-mom of 25 years, Julie , and I put it all out there in Episode 3, where she talked about how difficult it was — and sometimes still is — finding her role with me. Of course I still spoke to women who know a lot about estrangement, including Dr. Bridgette Petit, Tam Stevens and Megan Margherio. Bridgette explained how she advises patients who are struggling with family relationships, and I especially enjoyed that her advice is focused on you . Tam explained some of the reasons she sees estrangement occur. While politics might not be the reason, it can serve as a breaking point. (This is something Maggie Frank-Hsu covered in a recent guest essay from Ashley Scoby on Estranged ). Megan shared the moment she realized she could mourn the idea of a mother she never had and still walk away from a mother who hurt her. I spoke to Gayle Kirschenbaum , who fascinated me with her ability to simply ignore all the ways her mother hurt her in favor of having a relationship. I wish it was possible for all of us to do this, but sadly I don’t think it works in every case. Still, Gayle is a shining example of extreme persistence, and after decades, she managed to achieve some agreed understanding with her mother. Finally, I had to feed my interest in — forgive me for using the term — dog moms. I don’t refer to myself as a dog mom, mainly because I wouldn’t want anyone to think that I believe caring for a dog is like being a mother. But I have learned through my own experience this year with a puppy, and interviews with other women, that it can be similarly trying in particular ways. And for me, it’s a way to achieve some level of ‘maternal’ love and affection without taking on what I consider to be the overwhelming burden and responsibility of motherhood. I talked to Keltie Maguire , the Kids or Childfree coach, about what dogs might teach us about how much autonomy we are willing to sacrifice. I was also so happy to talk to Katie Dunn , who writes about her decision to walk away from IVF and find joy in other ways of living, including with her dog. Well, I can’t think of a better way to wrap up this season than with that sentiment: dogs are awesome. Who can argue with that, really? I hope you enjoyed this season and I’d love your feedback. Please share in the comments or email me at monicacardenas@substack.com. The podcast will be back in the spring. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Tam is a psychologist, trainee counsellor and PhD researcher whose work centres on family relationships, identity and resilience. She runs the Substack Family Estrangement , where she explores the complex realities of family cut-offs from both sides - those who choose distance and those who live through being estranged. Her writing takes in many forms of estrangement and aims to offer nuance and balance in an often polarised conversation, helping family members better understand one another’s experiences. Across all her work, she is driven by a single question: How do we build resilient families with flexible, accepting communication? In this episode, we take a few minutes to tell you about our Estrangement Book Club , which is happening this Thursday. Then we talk about how a mother’s priorities evolve over the life of their children, communication within families (both biological and adopted), and the perceived frequency of estrangement. Mentioned in this episode: Jennette McCurdy’s memoir, I’m Glad My Mom Died. Join the Estrangement Book Club meeting this Thursday: This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

Thanksgiving week is often the start of a difficult time of year for a lot of estranged people, and I hope this interview with Dr. Bridgette J. Peteet is helpful. She is a clinical psychologist, professor, and author of (dis)Honor Thy Mother: Daughterhood, Dysfunction, and Deliverance . This hybrid memoir blends personal truth with psychological insight. Her work centers on adverse childhood experiences, cultural identity, and resilience, drawing from nearly two decades of community-engaged health disparities research. Her writing invites readers to confront difficult family narratives while reclaiming healing, power, and possibility. I’m so pleased to share this conversation with Dr. Peteet, who brings her own experience and anecdotes, but even better, professional advice and information for women in difficult or impossible relationships with their mothers, and who are working hard to overcome those demons. I found her to be an enlightened and validating voice in a space often filled with turmoil. You can follow Dr. Peteet on Instagram . This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe

If you’re a regular listener or reader of Bad Mothers, you know I adopted a puppy this year and it has been A LOT. I think it’s been a lot for me especially as an adamantly child-free woman. Because Annie demands all of my attention. It made me want to talk to other women who have made really thoughtful choices about whether to have children, and how pets fit into those choices. As soon as I found Katie’s Substack , I knew she’d make a great guest on this subject — and not just because she too has a “high energy” border collie. But more than talking about life with a dog, Katie offers a special perspective on the expected touchstones of life as a woman. Katie Dunn writes Afterglow , a space dedicated to the other happy endings - the ones that don’t end with a marriage, two kids and a white picket fence - but are still full of joy, purpose, and meaning. After navigating divorce and two infertility chapters in her 30s, Katie shares essays that challenge the narrow scripts of womanhood and the silence around fertility treatment that doesn’t “work.” Through honest storytelling, Katie explores what it means to step off the patriarchal escalator of life and create fulfilment, adventure and connection on your own terms. I hope you enjoy this conversation! Please be aware we do discuss infertility. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit monicacardenas.substack.com/subscribe