Podcast charts
Published by Radim Malinic
Daring Forever is a podcast about being human, wired for wonder, capable of courage, perpetually becoming. It's about the waves that knock us under and the strange, stubborn grace with which we surface. Hosted by Radim Malinic, an author, creative, and an eternally curious human who is on a mission to speak with incredible people, also called Forever Daring Humans, those in pursuit of an extraordinary life. Every week, discover an interview that is packed with amazing stories and value. How will you dare forever? This podcast is inspired by my upcoming book titled Daring Forever, which is now available for pre-order (Out October 2026) More info https://radimmalinic.co.uk/
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A short bonus episode showcasing a few standout moments from this week's guest interview with Marissa Garcia ~ Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Marissa Garcia is a brand designer and strategist from Fresno, California, currently in the middle of what she calls a "personal revolution" — expanding from brand design and strategy into building a creative co-working studio for entrepreneurs and founders in her hometown. ~ A former competitive runner, Marissa traces her understanding of personal branding back to childhood, when she was repeatedly cast as "Scary Spice" instead of the "Sporty Spice" identity she felt was truly hers. That early lesson — that if you don't control your narrative, someone else will — became the foundation of her three pillars of personal brand: clarity, consistency, and connection. She and Radim dig into her "delulu" mindset, the belief that opportunity isn't found but built, and the story of how she cold-pitched her way onto a stage at Cannes Lions and funded the entire trip through connections she built with no prior relationship. Takeaways Personal brand isn't something you own — it's something others perceive, but you have real power to influence it Marissa's three pillars: clarity (showing people who you are), consistency ("make it on brand" in everything you do), and connection (building relationships, not making asks) Being a "multi-hyphenate" isn't a lack of focus — singular identities can box creatives in rather than free them Opportunity is built, not found — Marissa manufactured her own speaking stage and funding at Cannes Lions through months of relationship-building Corporate life taught her the cost of attaching identity to a title or company instead of a bigger mission "Unshakable belief in what's possible," forged through her athletic background, carries into how she approaches business and rejection alike Other people's opinions of you are "none of your business" — a mantra she also teaches her kids Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
A short bonus episode showcasing a few standout moments from this week's guest interview with Benji Wiedemann wiedemannlampe.com ~ Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Benji Wiedemann, co-founder and executive creative director of Wiedemann Lampe, joins Radim to unpack a career that's grown from graphic design into something closer to nation-building — cultural strategy for governments, museums, and city-scale projects that won't be finished for another 25 years. ~ Benji traces his path from a German-Jewish family shaped by displacement, through a childhood spent convinced he'd end up homeless, to co-founding an agency with Alex Lampe that now works on cities not yet built. This is a conversation about listening as a discipline, self-doubt as a tool, and designing for a timescale far longer than any one career. Takeaways Family history can become a working philosophy — Benji's grandfather's "if you can't fit it in your pocket, you can't have it" now shapes how his agency thinks about value beyond ownership Struggling academically doesn't predict creative capability — some minds simply need different conditions, not different expectations Cultural strategy work runs on immersion, not assumption — arriving with "no bias" and extracting meaning rather than imposing ideas Real listening isn't passive — showing people how they've been heard is what turns input into trust Self-doubt and fear aren't obstacles to creative clarity — treated right, they're what sharpens a point of view Sustainable business leadership means building systems and making yourself replaceable, not staying indispensable Long-term thinking is a genuine competitive advantage — projects designed to outlive their creators tend to be the ones that matter Curiosity, empathy, and self-doubt together form a more durable creative foundation than confidence alone Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
A short bonus episode showcasing a few standout moments from this week's guest interview with Melissa Castan ~ Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Mel Castan is a Mexico City-born, Barcelona-based animator, illustrator, and community builder whose creative journey has taken her from advertising school to motion graphics to founding two community projects for creatives. ~ She talks with Radim about growing up in a military family with a spiritual streak, discovering illustration as a meditative practice, and building spaces where creatives can process burnout, imposter syndrome, and identity beyond the usual networking event. Takeaways Mel is a Mexico City-born, Barcelona-based animator, illustrator, and producer who's spent nine years building a career across advertising, motion design, and community-building Growing up in a military family — her grandfather a retired army general who turned to spirituality after retiring — shaped her comfort holding contradictions together She describes creativity as a lifelong practice tied to her ADHD, and drawing as a meditative practice since childhood A mapping show by Amon Tobin reshaped her sense of what creative work could be and pulled her toward studying motion graphics in Barcelona She spent her first days in Barcelona intentionally getting lost in the Gothic Quarter, without a phone or map, as her way of learning the city She co-founded Frames by Friends, a five-year community for Barcelona's animators and motion designers that grew from an expected 20 people to 75 at its first event Her current project, Side Project, builds spaces — Honest Conversations and Work in Progress — for creatives to process burnout, imposter syndrome, and identity beyond networking She describes "vicarious learning" — the idea that sharing our struggles with others makes them feel lighter and less isolating Her guiding philosophy is that ideas have home, and her role is to be that home for others She's letting Side Project's future shape itself without attachment to a fixed outcome, trusting that showing up consistently will reveal the next step Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
A short bonus episode showcasing a few standout moments from this week's guest interview with Pep Salazar from OFFF Festival ~ Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Pep Salazar, director of OFFF — the design and creativity festival he's shaped since 2007 — joins Radim to unpack what it really takes to build a "city for three days." ~ Pep traces his own unlikely path, from a teenager who dreamed of being an actor in a small town near Barcelona, through his formative years building Sónar, to the moment he realised passion alone can blur your vision and every idea needs a manager to make it real. They talk about why OFFF shows unfinished work instead of polished portfolios, how a team of seven becomes thirty-five once the doors open, and why Pep would rather rebrand the festival every five years than let it stand still. This is a conversation about risk, honesty, and the invisible, exhausting, joyful work of building a community that actually means it. Takeaways Passion can blur your vision — every big idea eventually needs a manager to protect it and make it real A festival isn't a finished portfolio piece; showing the process and the unfinished idea is what builds real trust with a community Location does double duty — the city gives you context, but the venue has to speak the same language as the event itself Curating without a fixed theme keeps a lineup honest and lets creativity stay wide instead of narrow Saying no to most people who want the stage is one of the hardest, least visible parts of the job Deliberately rebranding every few years keeps a design festival credible — you can't ask others to embrace change if you won't Growth doesn't have to mean franchising — co-producing with local partners builds real community instead of a copy-paste event The job is made of a thousand three-minute conversations, and learning to actually enjoy them is its own skill Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
A short bonus episode showcasing a few standout moments from this week's guest interview with Lidia Scarlat ~ Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Lidia Scarlat is a Moldova-born producer who has built a career spanning animation, motion, VFX and live events — from stage visuals for the Swan Lake Ballet to screen visuals for Jurassic World theme park, often in the very same week. ~ Raised in a family of artists during Moldova's turbulent post-Soviet transition, she talks with Radim about how "everything is temporary and it will be fine" became a defining philosophy, why producing means jumping off the cliff before the artist ever can, and how showing up — not waiting to be discovered — built her entire career. They also get into AI's growing role in creative pipelines and why taste, direction and storytelling remain the parts no machine can touch. TAKEAWAYS Growing up in post-Soviet Moldova, Lidia's family shielded her from real instability while instilling the belief that everything is temporary and will be fine She comes from generations of artists — a polymath great-grandfather, actor grandparents, ballet-dancer parents — yet chose producing as her own way into the arts Producing means saying yes before anything exists — no team, no roadmap, just the intuition that you'll figure it out Nobody gets discovered by waiting; showing up to conferences and communities, starting with Motionographer and later OFFF, built her entire network and career She deliberately gives opportunities to artists without polished portfolios, because desire and hunger can't be faked or bought Learning to ask "stupid" questions early, instead of pretending to understand, became one of her most valuable production skills Every project is treated as its own "mutant" — pipeline and pace are built around the people and personalities involved, not a fixed process On AI: she's watched teams move from fear to curiosity, using it to iterate concepts faster, while believing taste and storytelling remain irreplaceable Her real measure of a good project isn't the outcome alone, but whether she'll love looking back on the process of making it Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
A short bonus episode showcasing a few standout moments from this week's guest interview with Dan Woodger ~ Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Dan Woodger — freelance illustrator, animation director, and returning Daring Forever guest — joins Radim to unpack Run London Draw London, the project he built alongside training for this year's London Marathon. ~ Starting from a blank canvas in January, Dan invited people to donate £5 to add a hand-drawn character to a sprawling crowd-scene illustration of the marathon route, turning strangers, club runners, and eventually Paula Radcliffe, pro athletes, and podcast hosts into part of the artwork. The conversation ranges across the collision of running and illustration, the frustration of NDA'd client work going unseen, the highs and lows of a data-obsessed relationship with Strava, and the sheer force of just asking for what you want. It closes on marathon day itself — cramp, crowd energy, and a mid-race bottle of water from Mo Farah — and on what comes next for the project. Takeaways The project raised over £5,000 for Oxfam, well past the initial £2,000 target, entirely self-funded and self-run Dan built the crowd scene in public on Instagram, showing the process rather than only the finished piece, as a deliberate response to AI in the industry Two hundred characters were needed to fill the scene — a number he set himself before a single donation came in Getting Paula Radcliffe, Mo Farah, pro athlete Julia Paternain, and the Ellis James and John Robins podcast involved all came from cold, slightly odd, direct asks Frustration with NDA'd client work — and the resulting quiet in his inbox — was part of what pushed him to make something fully his own Running and illustration turned out to share the same trap: comparing your own work-in-progress to everyone else's highlight reel On race day, cramp hit from 30K onward, but the crowd — and strangers recognising their own drawn characters — carried him through He's already thinking about a second edition, ideally with a brand or sponsor covering the printing and shipping costs he covered out of pocket this time Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
A short bonus episode showcasing a few standout moments from this week's guest interview with Eliza Williams from creativereview.co.uk ~ Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Eliza Williams, editor of Creative Review, joins Radim to trace a career built without connections, without a plan, and — by her own admission — a fair amount of terror. ~ From selling popcorn at the Clapham Picturehouse to writing for free on '90s art blogs, to landing at Creative Review and eventually taking the helm, Eliza's path is a masterclass in slow, unglamorous accumulation. This is a conversation about leaving exclusive worlds for more welcoming ones, learning that interviewing is just "speaking to a lot of people at once," and what it really means to steward a trusted industry title through AI anxiety, brand nervousness, and a generation that expects success to arrive fast. Takeaways There were no obvious career opportunities at school for creative writing — Eliza found her way in through a school magazine, a degree in English and art history, and years of low-paid, connection-less hustle Working in a cinema or bookshop isn't wasted time — some of the best creative instincts are built while doing something else entirely The art world's exclusivity pushed Eliza toward advertising and design, which she found far more welcoming, open, and friendly Confidence with public speaking and interviewing wasn't innate — it came from repetition, and from realising interviews are just natural conversation at scale The most interesting part of any story is rarely the polished end result — it's the process, the mess, and the moments things go wrong AI is real competition for entry-level creative work, but the bigger barrier for young creatives has always been the unglamorous, unpaid gestation period nobody teaches at university Brands are increasingly refusing press coverage out of fear of backlash — a shift that means the industry is failing to document its own good work Genuine daring in the industry comes from outliers who keep pushing, not from the safe, competent mid-level work that now dominates Creative Review's biggest challenge isn't relevance to its existing audience — it's finding a way to matter to creatives who are 20 years old right now Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
A short bonus episode showcasing a few standout moments from this week's guest interview with Simon Dixon from DixonBaxi ~ Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Returning guest Simon Dixon, co-founder of global brand and design agency DixonBaxi , sits down with Radim as the studio approaches its 25th birthday to talk about what actually holds up over a quarter of a century. ~ This is a conversation about comfort without complacency — how a body of work lets you meet the world with strength instead of fear, why Simon has never asked permission or had a mentor, and how "access" quietly determines who gets to be daring in the first place. They trace the throughline from permission to curiosity to gratitude, unpack the real difference between fear and doubt, and land on why taste, judgment, and care will matter more than ever in a world being reshaped by AI. Takeaways Twenty-five years in, real confidence isn't settled or atrophied — it's comfort earned through scar tissue and decision-making It's easy to be daring once you can pay the rent — access and infrastructure quietly gatekeep who gets to take creative risks There's no such thing as a dead end or a mistake; there's only information about what you've won or haven't Fear and doubt aren't the same thing — doubt is the ache of growth, not a threat to survive Generosity and mentoring don't wait for success; Simon took on interns from day one of his career Growth happens in layers, not stages — self-focus, collaboration, and generosity all coexist rather than replacing one another Taste isn't universal — it's conviction applied to your own work, which is why Hemingway and Jane Austen can both be right AI won't be a tool bolted onto creativity — it will be the infrastructure everything else runs through Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
A short bonus episode showcasing a few standout moments from this week's guest interview with Paloma Rincón ~ Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Visual artist and photographer Paloma Rincón joins Radim to trace a creative life built on colour, contrast, and control. Raised in Mexico City and surrounded by handcraft, tactile materials, and a graphic designer uncle, Paloma fell first for the analog darkroom, then for the still-life sets she builds entirely by hand. ~ She talks candidly about the shock of moving to a "monochrome" Madrid at a young age, the disciplined self-reliance it forced on her, and how a chance pairing of a disco ball and a melon became one of her most iconic images. The conversation moves from personal projects and happy accidents to the realities of commercial work, retouching, and surrendering control to a trusted team — closing on why she believes a distinct creative voice, not AI, will always be the thing that carries an artist through. Takeaways Childhood surroundings shape creative instinct long before you recognise it — Paloma's love of colour, handcraft, and building spaces (rather than playing with dolls) runs through all her work today Moving somewhere "greyer" doesn't just change your surroundings — it can force a self-reliance and discipline that becomes a lifelong asset A signature style often lives in tension: Paloma's geometric precision sits deliberately against organic, fluid elements Analog training builds a physical, technical understanding of light and process that digital immediacy doesn't automatically teach The best juxtapositions — like the disco melon — often arrive as happy accidents inside a loosely defined creative "box," not a rigid plan Personal projects and commercial projects demand different relationships with control; knowing when to hold on and when to surrender is a craft in itself Retouching your own work can be meditative, but stepping back and handing it to others often produces a better result In an AI-saturated landscape, a distinctive creative voice — not the tool — remains the real differentiator Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
A short bonus episode showcasing a few standout moments from this week's guest interview with Freddie Ost and Erick Kockrum from Snask ~ Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Radim is joined by Freddie and Erik from SNASK — the Stockholm-based studio that has spent nearly two decades building one of the most distinctive, daring creative brands on the planet. ~ What begins as a conversation about music, inspiration, and origins unfolds into a masterclass in conviction, values-led work, and why making enemies is the most logical brand strategy there is. From their refusal to enter awards to a client who fainted getting a tattoo at a wrap party, this episode is a full-blooded reminder of what it actually looks like to stand for something — and never apologise for it. Takeaways Build your brand like a rock band — with mythology, a manifesto, and the confidence to always play last Standing for your values creates both enemies and fans — and that is precisely the point Humour is far more universal than people believe; the fear of it not landing is bigger than the reality Making enemies isn't risky — having no position at all is the true creative catastrophe Great creative partnerships work by lifting each other's ideas further than either could reach alone "Fuck-off capital" isn't money — it's the courage to operate entirely on your own terms Holding clients through unfamiliar territory requires conviction and patience, not retreat The design industry desperately needs voices — neutral, inoffensive work doesn't just underperform, it disappears Daring Forever. Podcast with Radim Malinic daringcreativity.com | desk@daringcreativity.com Books by Radim Malinic Paperback and Kindle > https://amzn.to/4biTwFc Free audiobook (with Audible trial) > https://geni.us/free-audiobook Book bundles https://novemberuniverse.co.uk Lux Coffee Co. https://luxcoffee.co.uk/ (Use: PODCAST for 15% off) November Universe https://novemberuniverse.co.uk (Use: PODCAST for 10% off)
Ranking source
Apple Podcasts rankings via the Mato Topic Intelligence Platform.
Observed September 17, 2026. Cached outside the daily freshness window; the positions keep the date they were taken on.
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