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Published by Dr. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent
Our podcast delves deep into the dark side of the COVID-19 pandemic, revealing how influential doctors shaped the narrative. 📖 A Movement in the Making: "We Want Them Infected" isn't just a book; it's a call to action, exposing how the anti-vaccine movement infiltrated mainstream culture. Join us on this journey of discovering the impact of misinformation on public health, trust in science, and more.
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Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent examine a widening crisis in American public health: preventable measles deaths, conflicting vaccine messages from federal leaders, and growing distrust of the institutions charged with protecting the public. They revisit Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s 2019 trip to Samoa and newly reported documents that conflict with his confirmation-hearing testimony, then discuss the response to measles-associated infant deaths in Pennsylvania. The conversation also covers new evidence on COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness and safety, independent guidance from major medical organizations, and polling that shows Americans continue to trust their own clinicians more than federal health agencies. Finally, Jonathan and Wendy discuss the personal and scientific costs of lab-leak accusations, the pressure on virologist Robert Garry, and a reported plan to move infectious-disease research projects from NIH to the Department of Defense. In This Episode What newly disclosed Samoa correspondence suggests about Kennedy's prior statements to Congress How measles spreads through under-vaccinated communities and places infants and medically vulnerable children at risk Why the hosts object to public officials casting doubt on measles-associated deaths before emphasizing prevention The role of school vaccine requirements and the community-wide consequences of individual vaccination decisions A 2026 systematic review of COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness and safety for the upcoming respiratory season Why physician groups are issuing vaccine guidance amid uncertainty at the federal level The divide between trust in personal healthcare providers and trust in the CDC FDA and NIH How lab-leak politics and funding uncertainty are affecting virology research and the next generation of scientists The proposed transfer of NIH infectious-disease projects to military biodefense programs and the hosts' concerns about Robert Kadlec's record Articles and Resources Discussed RFK Jr lied in Senate confirmation hearings newly revealed documents indicate Samoa's prime minister criticises RFK Jr's vaccine views after deadly measles outbreak His Daughter Was America's First Measles Death in a Decade COVID-19 Vaccine Effectiveness and Safety for the 2026–2027 Respiratory Season Evidence Base for 2026–27 Respiratory Season Immunizations Vaccine recommendations from leading physician organizations Polls show Americans have lost confidence in federal government and public health leaders Lawmakers criticize deal that would send NIH funds to Department of Defense About the Podcast We Want Them Infected examines the physicians, academics, and public figures who promoted herd-immunity strategies and minimized the harms of COVID-19. Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent connect those arguments to today's public-health debates and ask what happens when misinformation moves from the margins into positions of power. Support the Show If this conversation was valuable, follow the podcast, leave a rating or review, and share the episode with someone who cares about public health, science, and accountability. Note: This episode contains commentary and opinion from the hosts. The show notes summarize the discussion and are not medical advice.
Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent open with new evidence on myocarditis risk among vaccinated and unvaccinated young people, revisiting how vaccine-associated myocarditis was amplified while the cardiac and mortality risks of infection were minimized. They then turn to the resurgence of measles, the consequences of falling vaccination rates, and the gap between public-health leadership and the urgency of the moment. The heart of the episode is a wide-ranging critique of the lab-leak movement. Howard and Orent outline why they believe the available molecular, epidemiological, and geographic evidence supports a zoonotic origin for SARS-CoV-2. They argue that the debate has too often become a political weapon aimed at scientists and public-health officials, while zoonotic spillover, wildlife trade, habitat disruption, and pandemic preparedness receive less attention. The conversation focuses especially on the contradiction between expressing intense concern about the first infection while partnering with or defending figures who promoted herd immunity through widespread infection. Through discussions of Matt Ridley, Alina Chan, Richard Ebright, Bryce Nickels, Jay Bhattacharya, and others, the hosts describe what they call "toxic apathy": treating the origin of infection number one as paramount while overlooking the preventable infections, hospitalizations, and deaths that followed. In This Episode Why infection itself—not vaccination—was associated with the highest myocarditis, pericarditis, and mortality risk in the study discussed How fear-driven messaging about rare vaccine side effects may have shaped decisions among young people and parents The expanding measles crisis, falling MMR coverage, and the threat of subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) Why the hosts believe public-health leaders must communicate far more forcefully about measles vaccination The molecular, evolutionary, geographic, and epidemiological case the hosts present for zoonotic emergence Why secrecy by Chinese authorities does not, by itself, establish that SARS-CoV-2 originated in a laboratory How lab-leak advocacy became intertwined with attacks on Anthony Fauci, Francis Collins, and other scientists The rhetoric used against researchers who support a zoonotic origin and the consequences of turning a scientific question into a loyalty test Matt Ridley's 2020 advocacy for infection-derived herd immunity and the claim that student infections could protect older adults Alina Chan's collaboration with Ridley and the hosts' critique of separating origin claims from pandemic-era policy positions Why knowing the origin of SARS-CoV-2 would not erase the need to prepare for both laboratory accidents and zoonotic spillover The episode's central warning: origin narratives should never become an excuse to abandon mitigation during the next pandemic Key Takeaway The hosts contend that pandemic preparedness requires more than assigning blame for how SARS-CoV-2 first entered the human population. It requires confronting misinformation, protecting people from preventable infection, supporting vaccination, preparing for multiple pathways of emergence, and judging public-health leaders by real-world outcomes. Referenced in the Conversation CIDRAP reporting on mRNA vaccination and myocarditis risk in teens and young adults The Great Barrington Declaration Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19 by Alina Chan and Matt Ridley Science-Based Medicine Centers for Disease Control and Prevention — Measles About the Podcast We Want Them Infected examines the doctors, academics, pundits, and political movements that promoted widespread infection during the COVID-19 pandemic—and the lasting consequences of those ideas for public health. Listen, Follow, and Share Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, share this episode with someone who follows public health and pandemic policy, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show. Disclaimer This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. The views expressed are those of the speakers. Always consult a qualified healthcare professional regarding personal medical decisions.
It's 2026, but according to Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent, some of the most powerful voices in American public health still can't stop relitigating 2020. In this episode of We Want Them Infected , Jonathan and Wendy break down a series of recent interviews and public appearances featuring Jay Bhattacharya, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, and others. They examine claims about the childhood vaccine schedule, splitting the MMR vaccine into separate shots, vaccine safety, measles outbreaks, and the continued effort to blame today's public-health problems on decisions made during the COVID-19 pandemic. They also revisit Bhattacharya's pandemic-era predictions and contrast them with his current role and responsibilities, including his responses to questions about declining public trust, vaccine misinformation, and the deadly CDC shooting. Later, Jonathan and Wendy discuss the tragic death of Cambridge professor Jason Arday and the online rhetoric surrounding the story, leading to a broader conversation about "crank magnetism" and how extreme beliefs can cluster together. In This Episode The push to change the childhood vaccine schedule and separate the MMR vaccine Stephen Miller's vaccine claims in the Oval Office Why Jay Bhattacharya keeps returning to the public-health decisions of 2020 Bhattacharya's past pandemic predictions versus his current leadership role Measles outbreaks, vaccination rates, and public trust RFK Jr.'s claims about vaccine safety and Anthony Fauci Trump's comments about the volume and timing of childhood vaccines The CDC shooting and questions about the consequences of vaccine misinformation Bill Cassidy's defense of his decision to support RFK Jr.'s confirmation Fauci's diaries and renewed arguments over COVID vaccines and pregnancy The death of Jason Arday and the rhetoric that followed "Crank magnetism" and the overlap between misinformation and other extreme beliefs About the Podcast We Want Them Infected examines the ideas, people, and policies that shaped the COVID-19 pandemic and continue to influence public health today. Hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent revisit the claims made by prominent pandemic contrarians and compare them with what happened in the real world.
A major surgical society has invited a former FDA commissioner to headline its clinical congress, introducing him with a bio that lists the bestsellers and the endowed chairs and mentions none of the pandemic-era claims, the accusations leveled at colleagues, or the circumstances of his departure. The hosts read the introduction in full, then read what it leaves out — and use it to make a broader point: the most dangerous thing happening in medicine right now isn't any single false claim, it's the speed with which discredited records are being smoothed over and their authors welcomed back onto main stages. From there the conversation turns to a widely shared magazine essay arguing that public health should make common cause with the MAHA movement, and to the Substack defense of that essay written by the hosts of a podcast built around cross-divide conversation. The hosts read both at length and take them apart, drawing a distinction they say the "dialogue" camp collapses: how a physician talks with a vaccine-hesitant patient in an exam room is not the same act as platforming movement leaders who have invoked Nuremberg trials and Holocaust imagery against doctors. One is medicine. The other, they argue, launders danger into an intellectual parlor game. The episode closes on what is being done to scientists in the meantime — a researcher detained at an airport, a retired NIH scientist taken from his home in handcuffs, an 85-year-old former agency director facing hearings whose stated purpose was imprisonment — and on the quieter counter-story: the people who have left the anti-vaccine movement, and the patient, unglamorous outreach that actually changed their minds. Topics Include A surgical society's sanitized introduction of a former FDA commissioner — and everything the bio omits The medical-error-as-third-leading-cause-of-death statistic and its origins Why records should still be cited after someone leaves power Headlines: reported White House pressure on HHS over childhood vaccines; new data on flu vaccine effectiveness against pediatric mortality The Atlantic's "Public Health Needs MAHA" essay and the rebuttals from Science-Based Medicine and others "Name one hit" — what MAHA has actually delivered on pesticides, food, and chronic disease Podcasting as an end in itself: the "Why Should I Trust You?" roster and the ethics of platforming Violent rhetoric in the anti-vaccine movement: Nuremberg framing, Holocaust comparisons, and fundraising off both Reactionary centrism and the demand that the people who were right apologize to the people who weren't Public health didn't lose trust — it was politicized Fauci: the noble lie on masks, the decision to take the Fifth, and the campaign against him Scientists detained, arrested, and blamed for origins they had nothing to do with How deconversion actually happens — Vaxopedia, a five-minute conversation with a nurse, and the parents who changed their minds About the Show We Want Them Infected is hosted by Dr. Jonathan Howard, a neurologist and psychiatrist in New York City, and Wendy Orent, a science writer specializing in the evolution of infectious disease. The show covers medical misinformation, public health policy, and the people shaping both. The views expressed are those of the hosts and guests.
What happens when government scientists decide they can no longer stay silent? In this episode of We Want Them Infected , Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent welcome Dr. Jenna Norton and Dr. Sylvia Chou—two former NIH scientists who helped organize and sign the Bethesda Declaration , an open letter raising concerns about political interference in biomedical research at the National Institutes of Health. The conversation explores why hundreds of NIH employees came together to publicly challenge policies they say undermined scientific integrity, disrupted clinical research, and created a culture of fear within one of the world's leading research institutions. Dr. Norton and Dr. Chou discuss the events leading to the Declaration, the difficult personal decisions they faced, and what they believe has changed one year later. They also examine the broader implications for public trust, scientific independence, and the future of federally funded medical research. Whether you agree or disagree with their conclusions, this episode offers an inside perspective from scientists who experienced these events firsthand. In This Episode The origins of the Bethesda Declaration Why NIH scientists chose to publicly dissent Allegations of political influence over scientific research Grant terminations and their impact on ongoing clinical trials How censorship concerns affected researchers inside NIH The culture of fear described by current and former NIH employees The challenges facing early-career scientists Scientific integrity versus political priorities Why the authors say courage and transparency matter in public health Reflections one year after the Bethesda Declaration Key Takeaways Scientific institutions depend on open debate and independent inquiry. Research funding decisions can have lasting consequences for patients and public health. Whistleblowing often comes with significant personal and professional risk. Public trust in science requires transparency and accountability. The future of biomedical research depends on protecting scientific integrity. Subscribe to We Want Them Infected for thoughtful conversations examining the policies, decisions, and scientific debates that continue to shape public health.
Is the "Make America Healthy Again" movement beginning to unravel? Jonathan Howard, MD, and Wendy Orent examine a wave of recent public health stories that they argue reveal growing dysfunction within the Department of Health and Human Services under Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. From staffing shortages and agency leadership vacancies to vaccine policy changes and expanding infectious disease outbreaks, they discuss what they believe are the real-world consequences of current federal health leadership. The conversation also explores new measles outbreaks, cyclospora foodborne illness, influenza vaccine effectiveness, updated COVID vaccine research, child labor debates, NIH funding, scientific independence, and the continuing influence of prominent pandemic-era commentators. Whether you agree or disagree, this episode tackles some of the most consequential public health debates unfolding today. In This Episode The latest reporting on RFK Jr.'s leadership at HHS Why MAHA and MAGA may be increasingly at odds The growing measles outbreaks across the United States Cyclospora infections and concerns over weakened food safety oversight New research on influenza vaccine effectiveness in preventing pediatric deaths Updated COVID vaccine effectiveness data against hospitalization and severe illness The role of herd immunity and population immunity in today's COVID landscape The future of CDC leadership and federal public health agencies NIH funding, political oversight, and concerns about scientific independence Scott Atlas and calls to abolish the NIH Continued debate over COVID lockdowns and pandemic policy David Zweig, Jeffrey Tucker, Brownstone Institute, and education debates Child labor laws and their intersection with pandemic-era rhetoric Why physician-scientists continue debating the legacy of COVID policy Scientific misinformation and public trust Current public health threats beyond COVID Key Topics Discussed RFK Jr. Department of Health and Human Services MAHA MAGA Measles resurgence Cyclospora outbreak Vaccine effectiveness Influenza vaccination COVID-19 boosters CDC leadership NIH funding Scientific research Public health policy Pandemic response School closures Medical misinformation Health policy Memorable Discussion Points "Public health leadership isn't judged by rhetoric—it's judged by outcomes." "Preventable diseases don't care about political ideology." "Science requires evidence, not personalities." Resources Mentioned Recent New York Times reporting on HHS leadership JAMA studies on COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness CIDRAP influenza vaccine research Scientific American reporting on NIH funding changes Washington Post reporting on federal science policy About We Want Them Infected We Want Them Infected examines public health, infectious disease, vaccine policy, misinformation, and science through evidence-based discussion featuring neurologist Dr. Jonathan Howard and science journalist Wendy Orent . Follow the Show Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave a review to help more listeners discover the show.
In Episode 102 of We Want Them Infected , hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent are joined by Jenna Norton , a public health scientist and NIH program officer who became one of the leading voices opposing what she describes as the politicization of biomedical research. The conversation begins with a discussion of a recent article by John Ioannidis criticizing "misinformation labeling," prompting a broader conversation about scientific accountability, public trust, and the responsibility to challenge misinformation. Dr. Norton then shares an insider's perspective on the dramatic changes inside the National Institutes of Health following the arrival of new leadership. She explains how grant cancellations, staffing reductions, halted clinical trials, and increasing political oversight led her and dozens of colleagues to organize the Bethesda Declaration , an open letter expressing concern over threats to scientific independence. *]:pointer-events-auto R6Vx5W_threadScrollVars scroll-mb-[calc(var(--scroll-root-safe-area-inset-bottom,0px)+var(--thread-response-height))] scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]" dir="auto" data-turn-id= "request-WEB:9cf48e8d-9eb3-49bc-9071-d09f0014ec8a-14" data-turn-id-container= "request-WEB:9cf48e8d-9eb3-49bc-9071-d09f0014ec8a-14" data-testid= "conversation-turn-2" data-turn="assistant"> The discussion explores: How NIH grant funding works and the role of program officers. The culture of scientific collaboration that historically defined the NIH. Concerns over political influence in research funding. The impact of canceled clinical trials on patients and researchers. Why Dr. Norton believes scientific dissent must be protected. Her experience being placed on administrative leave after publicly criticizing agency leadership. The long-term consequences of politicizing public health research. The episode concludes with a discussion about proposed federal funding changes, the future of biomedical research, and why protecting scientific integrity matters for every American—not just scientists. Guest Bio Jenna Norton is a health equity and public health scientist serving as a program officer at the National Institutes of Health , where her work has focused on kidney disease, urology, and health disparities within the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases . She is one of the principal organizers and signers of the Bethesda Declaration , a public statement from NIH employees expressing concerns about political interference in biomedical research and the erosion of scientific independence. Dr. Norton has written publicly about scientific integrity, whistleblower protections, and evidence-based policymaking, emphasizing that she speaks in her personal capacity rather than on behalf of the NIH. Key Topics Scientific integrity at the NIH The Bethesda Declaration NIH grant funding and peer review Clinical trial terminations Whistleblower protections Public trust in science Political influence on biomedical research Research ethics Health disparities Evidence-based policymaking
In this episode of We Want Them Infected, Jonathan Howard, MD, and Wendy Orent return with another "Therapy Time" session, breaking down the latest controversies in public health, vaccine policy, and medical misinformation. They examine a recent Wall Street Journal documentary on the Great Barrington Declaration and discuss what they describe as the ongoing effort to rewrite the history of the COVID-19 pandemic. The conversation explores the role of public health experts, media narratives, and the consequences of what they view as COVID amnesia. Jonathan and Wendy also discuss the growing measles outbreaks across the United States, declining vaccination rates, misinformation surrounding vitamin A as a measles treatment, and the broader impact of vaccine skepticism on public health. Additional topics include RFK Jr.'s influence over U.S. health policy, changes within federal health agencies, the future of vaccine recommendations, scientific funding, medical research, and the ethical questions surrounding global health decisions. Throughout the episode, they highlight the importance of frontline physicians, researchers, and healthcare workers who continue to combat infectious diseases and advocate for evidence-based medicine. Episode Highlights The Wall Street Journal documentary on the Great Barrington Declaration and the debate over COVID-era policies Why Jonathan believes COVID's impact on young and otherwise healthy patients is being minimized The controversy surrounding the idea of herd immunity through widespread infection The American Diabetes Association controversy involving criticism of NIH leadership RFK Jr.'s role in public health policy and reactions from major medical organizations The resurgence of measles and what declining vaccination rates mean for public health Misinformation surrounding measles treatments, including vitamin A The future of vaccine recommendations at the CDC and FDA Concerns over political influence in scientific research and federal funding The rise of unproven medical treatments marketed to vulnerable families Ethical debates around global infectious disease response, including Ebola The healthcare workers and scientists continuing to protect public health Memorable Quote "The people taking care of Ebola patients are the bravest people in the world." — Wendy Orent Resources & Articles Mentioned The Great Barrington Declaration The Wall Street Journal documentary on COVID-era debates The New York Times reporting on RFK Jr.'s leadership of HHS STAT News reporting on RFK Jr.'s health policy promises CDC reports on measles outbreaks in the United States Reporting on vitamin A toxicity linked to misinformation about measles treatments The Guardian reporting on vaccine misinformation studies Reporting on NIH funding and scientific research changes
This week on We Want Them Infected , Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent take a step back from the headlines to examine the academics, journalists, physicians, and commentators who helped legitimize and elevate the MAHA movement. They revisit articles, endorsements, and public statements that portrayed figures like Jay Bhattacharya, Marty Makary, and Vinay Prasad as reformers poised to restore trust in science and public health. With the benefit of hindsight, they explore how those predictions have aged, what has happened inside major health agencies, and why accountability matters when influential voices help shape public opinion.
This week on We Want Them Infected , Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent unpack a whirlwind week in public health and pandemic policy. They examine newly released FDA findings showing no definitive child deaths linked to COVID vaccines, challenge claims made by former FDA officials, and discuss the growing controversy surrounding vaccine safety narratives. They also explore the fallout from leadership changes at the FDA, RFK Jr.'s latest public health moves, concerns about scientific collaboration restrictions, and the surprising response to recent hantavirus and Ebola threats. Along the way, they take a closer look at Jay Bhattacharya's evolving stance on infectious disease mitigation and what it may reveal about the realities of public health leadership.
Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent call this week their "Red Wedding": within days, FDA Commissioner Marty Makary resigned, Vinay Prasad was pushed out of CBER, Tracy Beth Hoeg was fired, and Senator Bill Cassidy lost his Louisiana primary. The hosts argue this is not a tragedy but a long-foretold collapse — a group of physicians who built careers as COVID-era contrarian podcasters discovering that running a regulatory agency is fundamentally different from posting about one. Howard works through the wreckage: Makary's reported approval of flavored nicotine products days before his ouster, the FDA's treatment of the rare disease community, the leaked memo claiming pediatric COVID vaccine deaths that career staff refused to sign off on, and the broader pattern of "regulatory whiplash" that drove the agency into dysfunction. The episode then turns to who is still standing — Jay Bhattacharya at NIH, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. at HHS — and what Kennedy is reportedly doing to vaccines from behind the scenes via Martin Kulldorff's review effort. Throughout, the hosts return to a single thesis: the skills that made Makary, Prasad, Hoeg, and Cassidy famous during COVID — opinion, tweeting, posturing — do not translate into running institutions, and the medical commentators who vouched for them (John Mandrola, Adam Cifu) have lost any remaining credibility. Key Topics Discussed Bill Cassidy's primary loss and the cost of the Kennedy confirmation vote Cassidy's earlier vote to convict Trump after January 6 followed by his decisive vote advancing RFK Jr. as HHS Secretary. Howard and Orent's view that Cassidy's promise to "keep Kennedy in line" was hollow from the start. What Cassidy's defeat signals about Trump's grip on the Republican base in Louisiana — and the hosts' read that his lame-duck status may give him cover to block the next round of HHS nominees. Marty Makary's resignation and the "worst FDA Commissioner in 25 years" framing The Stat News piece characterizing Makary's tenure, and the reporting that flavored nicotine was the precipitating issue with Trump's tobacco-industry donors. Howard's counterpoint: Makary reportedly approved a batch of electronic nicotine delivery systems (ENDS) on May 5, 2026 — the weekend before he resigned — undercutting the "principled stand" narrative. The pattern of selfie videos, public-facing performance, and what former FDA staff describe as hostile management of career scientists. Makary's pre-FDA record: the "medical error is the third leading cause of death" claim, Omicron as "nature's vaccine," "Omicold," herd immunity calls in May 2021, and the Nazi-bioweapon Lyme disease theory amplification. Vinay Prasad, regulatory whiplash, and the rare disease community How Prasad's stated preference for randomized controlled trials translated into rejection of rare disease therapies — and the disconnect between calling for RCTs on Twitter and the practical impossibility of running them for small patient populations. Right-to-try advocates, the libertarian wing of MAHA (Senator Ron Johnson), and why they turned on Prasad. Howard's point: Pfizer's halted COVID vaccine RCT in 50–65-year-olds is the case study — the trials Prasad demanded couldn't actually be enrolled. Tracy Beth Hoeg, the leaked pediatric deaths memo, and the Maryanne Demasi interview Hoeg's insistence she was fired, not resigned, and her interview with Brownstone Institute–adjacent journalist Maryanne Demasi. Her claim that the chaos at the FDA was "created by the media" rather than real. The memo alleging 10 pediatric deaths from the COVID vaccine that career FDA staff would not sign off on — and Howard's contrast with the J&J/thrombosis response, where nine deaths produced immediate, transparent action. Hoeg's role in the Denmark-style vaccine schedule rollback memo alongside Makary. The Makary–Prasad ZDoggMD clip on FDA "vindictiveness" — and the irony Audio pulled from a pre-appointment Prasad/Makary appearance describing the FDA as "erratic," "capricious," and politically pressured. Howard's read: every criticism they leveled at the Biden-era FDA describes their own tenure — political pressure from Trump, demoted career staff, inconsistent standards. The Peter Marks / Marion Gruber / Phil Krause booster episode reframed in light of what followed. John Mandrola, Adam Cifu, and the cost of vouching Mandrola's "Can We Give the New FDA's Leadership a Chance?" piece a year earlier — and the line about Prasad and Makary inducing companies to run proper RCTs, set against Pfizer's halted trial. Howard's account of an email exchange with Cifu following Cifu's visit to NYU — Howard's offer of a serious content-level conversation, and Cifu's decline. The broader "medical conservatives" project and what the hosts argue has happened to its credibility. Jay Bhattacharya, NIH, and the resignation letter from departing staff The letter from a senior NIH scientist on Bhattacharya's leadership — political termination of grants, deals institutions are making to recover funding, and Bhattacharya's silence. Howard and Orent's read on Bhattacharya's visible deterioration and his retreat into Great Barrington nostalgia. Kennedy's behind-the-scenes vaccine review and Martin Kulldorff The New York Times reporting (Christina Jewett and Sheryl Gay Stolberg) on Kennedy's vaccine inquiry being led by Kulldorff. Howard's pushback on the framing of Kulldorff as merely "a critic of restrictions and mandates" — and the 2020 record of his herd-immunity-through-infection advocacy, including his Stockholm "almost at herd immunity" claim in April 2020. The hosts' concern that the COVID amnesia project lets pandemic-era pro-infection figures re-enter regulatory power with their record sanitized. Casey Means, Surgeon General nomination withdrawal, and MAHA fracturing The withdrawn Surgeon General nomination and what it signals. The Robert Malone vs. Makary public falling-out over the unreleased pediatric deaths data. Why the MAHA coalition — held together by shared COVID grievance — is coming apart now that COVID has receded from headlines. Notable Moments On Cassidy: "He betrayed his oath as a physician, he betrayed the American people, and he's going down into the ignominious dust." — Wendy Orent On the Makary–Prasad–Hoeg trio: "The same skill sets that catapulted these guys to power — essentially being excellent podcasters — do not translate into leading a government agency of tens of thousands of employees that regulates 20 percent of the US economy." — Jonathan Howard On the legacy: "These guys are now cautionary tales for medical students. I would love to teach a course called 'Be the Opposite of Bill Cassidy, Marty Makary, Vinay Prasad, and Tracy Beth Hoeg.'" — Jonathan Howard On Bhattacharya: "His soul has been totally corrupted by the people who he teamed up with. You also see it in his face. He's not the same person that took the position." — Jonathan Howard References Mentioned in the Episode Stat News — "Why Marty Makary Was the Worst FDA Commissioner in 25 Years" Vinay Prasad's 2016 Stat News rebuttal of Makary's "medical error" claim David Gorski (Science-Based Medicine, 2016) — rebuttal of the medical-error-as-third-leading-cause-of-death claim Jonathan Howard, Science-Based Medicine — recent piece compiling Makary's COVID-era statements New York Times — Christina Jewett and Sheryl Gay Stolberg on Kennedy's vaccine inquiry Washington Post — "Ouster of RFK's Allies Tests MAHA-Trump Alliance" Ben Mazer, The Atlantic — on whether Makary and Prasad enacted lasting change Francis Lee — In COVID's Wake Alfred Crosby — America's Forgotten Pandemic Maryanne Demasi interview with Tracy Beth Hoeg MedPage Today — Makary and Prasad, "The Importance of Humility in Medicine" People Referenced Marty Makary — outgoing FDA Commissioner Vinay Prasad — former CBER Director Tracy Beth Hoeg — fired FDA official Senator Bill Cassidy (R-LA) — lost primary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. — HHS Secretary Jay Bhattacharya — NIH Director Martin Kulldorff — leading Kennedy's vaccine review Peter Marks — former CBER Director, Operation Warp Speed Bob Kadlec — Operation Warp Speed David Kessler — former FDA Commissioner (referenced) Marion Gruber and Phil Krause — former FDA vaccine reviewers John Mandrola and Adam Cifu — "medical conservative" commentators Robert Malone — anti-vaccine activist Casey Means — withdrawn Surgeon General nominee Senator Ron Johnson (R-WI) Representative Jake Auchincloss — opened FDA whistleblower line Art Caplan — bioethicist (retirement) Erica Schwartz — CDC Director nominee, unconfirmed
Dr. Jonathan Howard (neurologist and author) and science journalist Wendy Orent return for another sharp, unsparing look at the state of U.S. public health policy. In this episode, the hosts unpack the surprise withdrawal of Casey Means as surgeon general nominee, her replacement by Fox News commentator and MSKCC breast imaging chief Dr. Nicole Saphier, and what the shuffle signals about the fracturing of the MAHA coalition. They dig into Saphier's contradictory record — pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021 set against more recent anti-vaccine messaging, her supplement business (DropRx), and her now-deleted social media posts criticizing Trump and Elon Musk. From there, the conversation turns to the FDA's blocked publication of research showing the COVID and shingles vaccines are safe, the apparent role of former FDA vaccine office chief Dr. Vinay Prasad, and reporting that FDA Commissioner Marty Makary's job is in jeopardy. The episode also covers a small piece of good news — NIH program director Jenna Norton being reinstated after Jay Bhattacharya placed her on administrative leave for organizing the Bethesda Declaration — alongside disturbing developments: RFK Jr. clearing the path for minors to use tanning beds, and the militarized arrest of 78-year-old retired NIH scientist Dr. David Morens. Howard and Orent close on what the Morens arrest reveals about where lab leak conspiracy thinking has led American science and the rule of law. Hosts Dr. Jonathan Howard: Neurologist, professor, and author who writes prolifically on COVID misinformation and public health policy. Wendy Orent: Science journalist and author specializing in infectious disease, evolutionary biology, and public health. Episode Timestamps [00:00] Welcome and Atlanta weather check-in [00:35] Casey Means out, Nicole Saphier in as surgeon general nominee — what it signals about MAHA [01:30] Saphier's role at Memorial Sloan Kettering and her integrative medicine push [02:50] The 2021 WSJ op-ed with Marty Makary: a 10-fold error on pediatric COVID hospitalizations that was never corrected [06:30] Saphier's video opposing COVID vaccines for healthy children — and the framing of myocarditis as a fate worse than death [09:20] Saphier's earlier pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021, and why MAHA now resents her [11:15] DropRx supplements: the surgeon general nominee's tincture business [12:30] Brandy Zadrozny's reporting on Saphier's book and her past criticism of the Plandemic film [13:10] Wendy watches Plandemic so you don't have to: Judy Mikovits and the anti-vaccine machine [14:50] CNN reports Saphier purged posts critical of Trump and Musk before her nomination [15:50] The most disturbing Saphier clip: 'DOGE is one of the greatest things to happen in U.S. history' while telling cancer researchers to 'just pause' [16:50] Harvard's November 2025 finding: hundreds of thousands of deaths from the USAID shutdown [18:20] Good news: Jenna Norton reinstated at NIH after Jay Bhattacharya tried to fire her over the Bethesda Declaration [19:30] Greg Gonsalves on scientists who cooperate with authoritarian science policy [20:10] FDA blocked publication of research showing the COVID and shingles vaccines are safe [21:30] Vinay Prasad: the censorship critic who became a censor [22:30] Why are these people opposed to the shingles vaccine? Howard and Orent on herpes zoster, strokes, and ophthalmic complications [23:50] New evidence: recombinant zoster vaccine linked to reduced dementia risk in adults 65+ [26:10] Marty Makary's FDA in chaos — WSJ, Bloomberg, and Politico reporting on a possible shakeup [28:00] Trump pressures the FDA to approve flavored vapes; ENDS authorization issued the same day [31:00] Makary's interview defending the Replimmune metastatic melanoma rejection — and getting caught in the contradiction [33:30] Who's really driving the FDA shakeup? Biotech investors, not patients [35:30] RFK Jr. clears path for minors to use tanning beds, and what dermatologists are saying [36:30] The arrest of Dr. David Morens: a 78-year-old retired NIH scientist, federal agents, tactical gear, and a strip-search [38:30] Lysenkoism revisited — what the lab leak conspiracy was always going to lead to [40:30] Closing thoughts and sign-off Key Discussion Points The Nicole Saphier Nomination Casey Means was withdrawn as surgeon general nominee and replaced by Dr. Nicole Saphier, head of breast imaging at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center and a frequent Fox News medical commentator. Howard revisits Saphier's December 2021 Wall Street Journal op-ed with Marty Makary, which understated pediatric COVID-19 hospitalizations by roughly a factor of 10 because the authors did not realize covid.net data only covered about 10 percent of the U.S. population. The error has never been corrected. Saphier's pre-nomination digital footprint included pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021 alongside more recent anti-vaccine content, criticism of Trump and Elon Musk that has since been purged, and a personal supplement line called DropRx. FDA Censorship of Vaccine Safety Research The FDA blocked publication of internal research finding that the COVID-19 and shingles vaccines are safe, with reporting suggesting Dr. Vinay Prasad's office was involved in the decision before he left the agency. Howard points out the irony: Prasad built much of his public profile complaining about scientific censorship, then engaged in censorship the moment he held FDA power. New peer-reviewed research continues to show the recombinant zoster (shingles) vaccine is associated with reduced dementia risk in adults aged 65 and older, even as senior officials downplay or block such findings. Marty Makary on Thin Ice Multiple outlets — the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, NOTUS, and a Rachel Bade scoop — report Makary is at risk of being removed as FDA Commissioner over conflicts with the White House and his handling of rare-disease drug approvals. The same day Trump publicly pressured the FDA on flavored vapes, the agency issued a press release authorizing new ENDS (electronic nicotine delivery systems) products. In a 15-minute interview, Makary defended the rejection of Replimmune's metastatic melanoma drug by attributing it to career FDA scientists, but the journalist surfaced earlier indications that the initial review team had recommended approval. A Rare Piece of Good News NIH program director Jenna Norton, a key organizer of the Bethesda Declaration, was reinstated after Dr. Jay Bhattacharya placed her on administrative leave. A judge also reinstated several FEMA employees in the same ruling. The Arrest of Dr. David Morens Federal agents in tactical gear and bulletproof vests arrested Dr. David Morens, a 78-year-old retired NIH influenza researcher and former aide to Dr. Anthony Fauci, at his home over allegations he used a private email account to discuss official business and avoid FOIA disclosure. According to reporting in Science, Morens was strip-searched, handcuffed, and driven roughly 65 kilometers for fingerprinting and booking. Howard and Orent frame the arrest as the predictable endpoint of years of lab leak conspiracy rhetoric, and as a clear case of selective political prosecution. Mentioned in This Episode Wall Street Journal op-ed: 'Should You Vaccinate Your Five-Year-Old?' by Nicole Saphier and Marty Makary, December 3, 2021 Plandemic (2020 anti-vaccine film featuring Judy Mikovits) Make America Healthy Again (book by Nicole Saphier) Harvard study, November 2025, on deaths attributable to the USAID shutdown Greg Gonsalves essay on Vichy scientists Bethesda Declaration Alyssa Finley, Wall Street Journal: 'President Trump's Marty Makary Problem' Bloomberg: 'Paranoia, Turmoil and Backlash Inside Marty Makary's FDA' Rachel Bade: 'Scoop: Makary's Job in Jeopardy as White House Considers FDA Shakeup' Liz Esely White, Wall Street Journal: 'Trump Pressures FDA Commissioner to Approve Flavored Vapes' Los Angeles Times: 'RFK Jr. clears path for minors' use of tanning beds, much to the dismay of dermatologists' Science: 'Guns and bulletproof vests: How federal agents arrested a Fauci aide' Brandy Zadrozny — reporting on Nicole Saphier
In this episode of We Want Them Infected, hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent break down the growing concerns around scientific censorship, COVID-19 misinformation, and the erosion of public trust in health institutions. They examine controversial claims surrounding vaccine studies, leadership decisions at the CDC and NIH, and the broader implications of political influence on public health policy. The discussion highlights debates over COVID vaccine efficacy research, the suppression of scientific findings, and the role of key figures like Jay Bhattacharya and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. in shaping public discourse. The hosts also explore the resurgence of diseases like measles, declining vaccination rates, and the long-term consequences of weakened public health infrastructure. From academic freedom concerns to global health risks, this episode provides a critical analysis of how misinformation and leadership decisions are reshaping science, medicine, and public trust in 2026. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/ The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.
Jonathan and Wendy unpack the most surprising political move of Trump's second term: the nomination of Dr. Erica Schwartz — a physician, lawyer, former Coast Guard public health official, and unapologetic architect of military vaccine mandates — to run the CDC. Praised by figures like Jerome Adams, Vin Gupta, and Dorit Reiss, and openly loathed by RFK Jr.'s attack-dog attorney Aaron Siri, Schwartz's selection is read as a signal that the White House is quietly sidelining Kennedy ahead of the midterms and trying to win back the saner corners of the GOP. From there, the hosts dig into the widening fault lines inside MAHA: Marty Makary vs. Robert Malone — the "10 children killed by the COVID vaccine" report Makary promised has never materialized, and Malone is now publicly accusing him of the exact cover-up Makary accused his predecessors of. Vinay Prasad's exit from the FDA — his much-hyped randomized controlled trial of the Pfizer COVID vaccine in healthy 50–64-year-olds failed to recruit, proving (again) that tweeting about RCTs is easier than running them. Jonathan plays Prasad's own year-old promise back against him. The rumored FDA replacement — ophthalmologist and Twitter personality David Hooman, whose COVID-vaccine misinformation record would send exactly the wrong signal. Jay Bhattacharya on the rally circuit — CPAC, Turning Point USA, Kennedy rallies, DeSantis rallies — all while insisting "science shouldn't be political." Plus his role in suppressing a CDC vaccine-safety study and the UCSF faculty petition to block Prasad's return. The peptides free-for-all at the FDA, and why Kennedy still has enough juice to throw bones to his wellness-grifter base. Also: measles in Utah, a Moab travel detour, and a plea to every journalist, clinician, and listener still pushing back. MAHA is on its back foot — the job now is to keep the pressure on.
Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent dig into the widening fractures inside the MAHA coalition — from Robert Malone's dramatic ACIP exit and UFO tangents, to Vinay Prasad's phantom "10 dead children" claim, Jay Bhattacharya's inability to fix literal broken windows at the CDC, and the ongoing search for anyone willing to run federal health agencies. A sprawling, unscripted conversation about vaccine science, institutional collapse, and the human cost of health misinformation. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/ The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.
In this episode, the hosts unpack the controversial exit of Vinay Prasad from the FDA and what it reveals about fractures inside the MAHA coalition and the broader Trump-era health policy landscape. They examine the disputes surrounding rare-disease drug approvals—particularly Huntington's gene therapy—alongside ongoing battles over COVID vaccines, regulatory standards, and public trust in federal health agencies. The discussion also explores how political alliances, pandemic-era commentary, and conflicts with patient advocacy groups ultimately contributed to Prasad's downfall and what it may signal for the future of vaccine policy and biomedical regulation in the U.S. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/ The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.
In this episode, Jonathan and Wendy examine the growing instability inside U.S. public health institutions and how political battles, misinformation, and shifting leadership are reshaping the national conversation around vaccines and infectious disease. They are joined by Jeff Kunzler, creator of the Pandemic Accountability Index, a project that tracks misinformation and public commentary related to the COVID-19 pandemic. Together, they unpack rising measles cases, the evolving political influence on public health agencies, and the broader cultural battle over how the pandemic will be remembered. The conversation explores how misinformation spreads, how public trust has shifted since COVID-19, and what the future may hold for American public health policy. Guest Bio Jeff Kunzler is the creator of the Pandemic Accountability Index, a project that tracks misinformation and public statements related to the COVID-19 pandemic and public health policy. Raised in Washington State's Skagit Valley, Jeff later worked in the advertising industry as a graphic designer, copywriter, and photographer. During the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic, he began compiling medical research, public commentary, and social media statements related to pandemic narratives. That work eventually developed into the Pandemic Accountability Index, which aims to document how influential figures shaped public health discourse during the pandemic. Resources Pandemic Accountability Index https://pandemicindex.substack.com Science Based Medicine https://sciencebasedmedicine.org Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/ The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.
In this headline-driven episode, Jonathan and Wendy unpack the mounting turbulence inside U.S. public health institutions — from the political fallout over glyphosate and mRNA flu vaccines to FDA reversals, CDC leadership chaos, and a worsening measles outbreak. They examine internal fractures within the Maha movement, the politicization of vaccine policy, and the devastating real-world consequences of misinformation — including a 7-year-old hospitalized with measles encephalitis. The episode blends policy critique, scientific context, and ethical concern, highlighting how regulatory instability and distrust are reshaping American public health in 2026. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/ The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.
Jonathan and Wendy unpack how culture war politics, anti-vaccine ideology, and regulatory power are colliding in dangerous ways. The conversation begins with criticism Jonathan received after arguing that trans healthcare decisions should be left to doctors, patients, and families—not debated for podcast content or political gain. The discussion then pivots to the measles resurgence, including outbreaks in ICE detention centers and efforts to minimize measles deaths using recycled COVID-era talking points. They examine five recurring myths being repurposed from COVID to measles: people are dying "with" not "of" the disease, only sick children die, the outbreak is "almost over," vaccines are more dangerous than the illness, and doctors are to blame for deaths. Finally, they analyze the FDA's controversial refusal to review Moderna's mRNA flu vaccine, exploring what that decision signals about regulatory instability, innovation suppression, and long-term damage to vaccine research in the U.S. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/ The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.
Jonathan and Wendy unpack a week of grim headlines—starting with reactions to the Epstein files and what it means when high-profile "wellness" personalities show up in uncomfortable places. From there, they dig into the ongoing campaign to re-litigate COVID (lockdowns, schools, vaccines) as a justification for dismantling public health, highlighting how "restore trust in science" rhetoric often functions as cover for undermining expertise, sidelining journalists, and mainstreaming vaccine skepticism—while preventable outbreaks like measles keep spreading. Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/ The Fine Print The content presented in the "We Want Them Infected" Podcast and associated book is intended for informational and educational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the speakers, hosts, and guests on the podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of the creators, producers, or distributors. The information provided in this podcast should not be considered as a substitute for professional medical, scientific, or legal advice. Listeners and readers are encouraged to consult with relevant experts and authorities for specific guidance and information. The creators of the podcast and book have made reasonable efforts to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date. However, as the field of medical science and the understanding of the COVID-19 pandemic continue to evolve, there may be new developments and insights that are not covered in this content. The creators are not responsible for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided. They disclaim any liability for any loss, injury, or damage incurred by individuals who rely on the content. Listeners and readers are urged to use their judgment and conduct their own research when interpreting the information presented in the "We Want Them Infected" podcast and book. It is essential to stay informed about the latest updates, guidelines, and recommendations related to COVID-19 and vaccination from reputable sources, such as government health agencies and medical professionals. By accessing and using the content, you acknowledge and accept the terms of this disclaimer. Please consult with appropriate experts and authorities for specific guidance on matters related to health, science, and the COVID-19 pandemic.
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Observed September 13, 2026. Cached outside the daily freshness window; the positions keep the date they were taken on.
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