Meaningful Work Matters

In this episode, Sociologist Cindy L. Cain joins Andrew Soren to discuss her new book, Called to Care? Health Care, Burnout, and the Search for Meaningful Work , based on fifteen years of research with healthcare workers. Cindy challenges a familiar assumption about burnout: that meaning is something individuals must find, or recover, on their own. Her research argues that meaningfulness is created through the interaction between workers, their colleagues, and the structures and cultures surrounding their work. When those conditions make it difficult for people to see progress or act on what they care about, their sense of purpose begins to erode. That means burnout cannot be addressed through individual coping strategies alone. Organizations also need to examine how work is designed and where people have the freedom to make a difference. Based on a memory care facility in her research, Cindy shares how creating small, visible forms of progress can give workers a greater sense of control, even when the larger outcomes remain beyond their influence. Andrew and Cindy also dig into the pivotal role of middle managers. These leaders may not control an organization's biggest decisions, but they help shape the everyday environments in which people either connect with, or become disconnected from, the meaning in their work. This conversation offers a more systemic and hopeful way to think about burnout: meaningful work is neither an inherent quality of a job nor something each person must manufacture alone. It is something we create together. Key Takeaways Burnout's standard definition includes a "loss of purpose or efficacy" component that many studies quietly stopped measuring. Cindy argues it's actually the root of the whole problem, not a minor piece of it. Because the root cause is structural, the fix has to be structural too: individual coping tools can help, but they leave the organizational obstacles untouched. "Progress" with visible forward motion, even in small amounts, functions as a locus of control: often the one lever workers can still pull when the bigger levers (hours, structure, outcomes) are out of reach. Care North, a memory care facility with unusually low turnover, delegated real autonomy down to CNAs and built its culture around small, specific rituals rather than top-down initiatives. Mid-level leaders may be the most pivotal people in the whole system: they rarely control the institution, but they have outsized control over the "microcultures" where real change actually happens. Healthcare organizations function as "status zoos," where professional, organizational, and social status intersect to shape who has access to meaningful work and who doesn't. Meaningfulness is neither purely individual nor a fixed property of a job; it emerges from the ongoing interaction between workers and the structures of their workplace. Why This Episode Matters Most conversations about burnout focus on what individuals can do to cope better. Cindy Cain's research points somewhere else: at the organizational structures that produce burnout in the first place, and at how much can change when leaders are willing to redistribute control rather than roll out another wellness initiative. One of the episode's sharpest implications is about who actually holds that power. It’s not necessarily senior leadership, but the mid-level managers who stay connected to what's happening on the ground and have real, underused control over their team's day-to-day culture. For anyone leading a team inside a system they don't fully control, which is most people, this episode offers a hopeful reframe: meaningful change is often smaller, more local, and more achievable than it looks from the top. About Our Guest Dr. Cindy L. Cain is an Associate Professor of Sociology at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, specializing in organizations and workplaces within healthcare. Her research focuses on settings where care work is most emotionally and physically demanding, including end-of-life care and dementia care. She is the author of Called to Care? Health Care, Burnout, and the Search for Meaningful Work (Rutgers University Press, 2026), and has contributed to From Crisis to Catastrophe: Care, COVID-19, and Pathways to Change (2023) and Caring on the Clock (2015). Beyond her academic work, Cindy has direct experience as a care worker for children, adults at the end of life, and people with developmental disabilities. Mentioned in This Episode Called to Care? Health Care, Burnout, and the Search for Meaningful Work by Cindy L. Cain Julie Haizlip , University of Virginia, and her research on "mattering" in healthcare Teresa Amabile's research on the progress principle Cindy Cain's Substack , featuring personal essays connecting these themes to her own work and creative life Additional academic articles by Cindy Cain

Content note: this episode discusses violent extremism and briefly references research on suicidal ideation. In this episode, Andrew Soren is joined by researcher Dr. Jeremy "Jer" Clifton, Director of the Primals Project at the University of Pennsylvania, for a conversation that starts with the question “what do you believe about the world as a whole?” and ends up finding out what actually separates violent extremists from everyone else. Jer's research centers on "primal world beliefs," the deep, often unexamined assumptions people carry about whether the world is fundamentally safe, enticing, and alive. Jer shares a surprising discovery from his latest research: it isn't a belief that the world is dangerous that predicts violent extremism, as he would have assumed, it's a belief that the world is largely empty of things that matter. They walk through a ten-day photography challenge Jer's team designed to shift that belief, and what happened when they tested it on those who supported the January 6, 2021, US Capitol insurrection. The conversation closes with a genuinely practical turn toward the workplace: what it might mean to treat your colleagues, your clients, and even your product as things that actually matter, and why that belief is harder to fake than most people think. Key Takeaways Primal world beliefs are deep assumptions about the world as a whole (safe vs. dangerous, enticing vs. dull, alive vs. inert) that shape behavior without most people realizing they hold them. "Meaningful world belief" is the belief that the world contains many vs. few things that matter and is distinct from having meaning in your own life. Primal beliefs fluctuate day to day more than people expect, and can shape how you perceive the people closest to you, including romantic partners. At work, meaningful world belief may show up as believing your interactions with colleagues and clients genuinely matter, and that your product or service has real value. High meaningful world belief may act as a natural check against the kind of all-consuming, single-cause obsession that can lead to burnout, exploitation, or worse. Why This Episode Matters Most conversations about meaningful work focus on the individual's own sense of purpose. This episode asks a related but different question: what do you believe about the world beyond your own life, and how much is that belief silently shaping how you treat the people and work in front of you? Jer Clifton's research suggests that a belief most of us have never examined (whether the world at large is full of things that matter) has consequences ranging from workplace kindness to, in its most extreme form, political violence. For leaders and individuals alike, it's a reminder that some of the most consequential beliefs shaping our behavior are ones we didn't know we were carrying. About Our Guest Dr. Jeremy D. W. Clifton received his Ph.D. in psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, studying under advisor Martin Seligman with Angela Duckworth as committee chair and Rob DeRubeis on his committee. He is the Director of the Primals Project at the University of Pennsylvania, where his research centers on primal world beliefs and the challenges of measuring them well. His foundational 2019 paper introducing primal world beliefs was published in Psychological Assessment and featured in the Washington Post ; his 2019 Psychological Methods paper addressed tradeoffs between validity and reliability in scale design. In 2024, the Association for Psychological Science named him a Rising Star. Mentioned in This Episode The Primal World Beliefs Inventory and free assessment at myprimals.com Jer Clifton's 2019 Psychological Assessment paper introducing primal world beliefs Edward P. Lemay Jr. , University of Maryland, on the day-to-day fluctuation of primal beliefs and their effect on relationships Jer's research team's study connecting meaningful world belief to violent extremism across multiple populations, including January 6th supporters and a sample of Kazakhstani prisoners

In this episode, Andrew Soren is joined by developmental psychologist Kaylin Ratner to talk about eudaimonic utility, a concept that flips a familiar question on its head. Instead of asking whether an activity feels personally meaningful, Kaylin asks whether the environment around that activity is actually built to help someone become who they're meant to be. The idea grew out of Kaylin's research on GripTape, a youth program that hands participants ten weeks, a small stipend, and full ownership over something they want to learn: no curriculum, no grades, no adult steering the outcome. Andrew and Kaylin dig into what the research found, why traditional measures of success can completely miss a young person who's actually thriving, and how the same four-part framework might apply just as easily to adult workplaces. They also talk candidly about the dark side of getting this right: what happens when a person becomes so fused with a meaningful role or organization that they lose any sense of who they are outside it. Key Takeaways Eudaimonic utility is the perception that an environment (a school, a program, a job) actually supports someone's growth into who they're trying to become. A young person disengaging from an unsupportive environment isn't necessarily failing; they may be correctly sensing that the environment has little to offer their development. Four things people check for in an environment: whether it lets them pursue personally significant goals, act authentically, grow, and work toward their own excellence. Self-determination theory's three basic needs (autonomy, competence, and relatedness) sit underneath eudaimonic utility, though the two concepts aren't identical. In GripTape's research, day-to-day sense of purpose and day-to-day progress toward a goal reinforced each other, giving empirical support to a long-assumed but rarely tested link. The eudaimonic utility scale was built to be adapted across contexts, including workplaces, though workplace-specific research is still early. The risk Kaylin worries about most is "engulfment," or losing your sense of self entirely inside a role, job, or organization that feels deeply meaningful. Why This Episode Matters Most conversations about meaningful work focus on finding the right role or the right purpose. This episode asks a less common question: is the environment around you actually capable of supporting that purpose once you've found it? Kaylin Ratner's research suggests that a lot of disengagement, at school and possibly at work, isn't a motivation problem. It's an environment that isn't built to help someone grow into who they're trying to be. For leaders shaping teams and cultures, and for anyone evaluating their own workplace, this conversation offers a concrete, four-part way to ask whether a given environment deserves the time being spent in it, and a clear-eyed warning about what happens when that environment starts asking for too much of someone's identity in return. About Our Guest Dr. Kaylin Ratner is an Assistant Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, where she advises doctoral students across the divisions of counseling psychology and developmental science and leads the Self and Psychological Well-Being Lab. Her research focuses on adolescent and young adult well-being, particularly the transition to adulthood and the role that identity, purpose, and meaning play in it. She earned her Ph.D. in Human Development from Cornell University in 2020, working with developmental psychologist Anthony Burrow, with whom she later completed a postdoctoral fellowship. Her research on eudaimonic utility, developed in partnership with the youth program GripTape, is the focus of this conversation. Mentioned in This Episode GripTape , the youth learning program at the center of Kaylin's research Kaylin Ratner's research on eudaimonic utility Self-determination theory , developed by Edward Deci and Richard Ryan Anne Brafford on self-determination theory Veronica Huta and Alan Waterman 's review of the core components of eudaimonia Erik Erikson's stages of psychosocial development , including identity, generativity, and integrity vs. despair Dr. Anthony Burrow , Cornell University

In this episode, Andrew Soren of Eudaimonic by Design sits down with personality psychologist Brian Little for a conversation that moves from a mishelved library book to a hockey metaphor for performance reviews, and lands, more than once, on the difference between well-being and well-doing. Brian's research looks past personality traits and into the personal projects that actually organize a life: the things we're trying to sustain, repair, protect, or build, whether that's taking out the garbage or trying to shift an entire field of thought. What makes a project worth studying, in his framework, is that it's personally salient. It reveals what someone actually cares about, not just how they compare to everyone else on a trait scale. Andrew and Brian dig into why meaningful work can be harder to sustain than it looks: a project can matter enormously and still become unmanageable, especially when the surrounding environment isn't built to support it. Brian also introduces free traits and restorative niches. He closes with a definition of flourishing that reframes the whole conversation: not a feeling, but the sustainable pursuit of the core projects in our lives. Key Takeaways Personality can be understood at three levels (how we're like all people, like some people, and like no one else) and traits really only describe the middle level. Personal projects reveal what someone is actually working on beneath their visible role or behaviour. A project can be highly meaningful and still contribute to burnout if it isn't manageable. Meaning and manageability are separate dimensions, and both matter. Standard performance conversations tend to reward "goals" and miss "assists," the support, trust-building, and behind-the-scenes work that make outcomes possible. Free traits explain why people act out of character for people or projects they care about, and why that performance carries a real cost. Restorative niches, the ways people recover after stretching beyond their natural tendencies, aren't one-size-fits-all. Asking about someone's personal projects can surface deeply private material, so leaders need trust and restraint, not a checklist. Why This Episode Matters Most conversations about meaningful work stay at the level of purpose, motivation, or engagement. Brian Little's research goes a layer deeper, into the ongoing, often invisible projects that structure someone's day. The colleague who seems checked out in a meeting might be trying to get a diagnosis for a sick kid. The manager who's uncharacteristically sharp might be holding together a role that's stopped being sustainable. For leaders, coaches, and anyone thinking seriously about meaningful work, this episode makes the case for paying attention to the project behind the performance, and building workplaces that make caring about that project actually possible. About Our Guest Brian R. Little is a personality psychologist whose research has helped shape the study of personality, motivation, personal projects, and human flourishing. He earned his Ph.D. in psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, and has taught or lectured at Cambridge, Oxford, Carleton, McGill, and Harvard. He's best known for developing Personal Projects Analysis, a framework for understanding the personally meaningful pursuits that structure a life, along with his related work on free traits and restorative niches. He is the author of Me, Myself, and Us: The Science of Personality and the Art of Well-Being . Mentioned in This Episode Personal Projects Analysis, Brian Little 's framework for studying personally meaningful pursuits Me, Myself, and Us by Brian R. Little Walter Mischel's Personality and Assessment and the person-situation debate Gordon Allport , one of the founders of personality psychology Ken Sheldon 's research on goals, striving, and well-being Albert Bandura's work on self-efficacy Adam Grant's work on giving and contribution Research on "mattering," including work associated with Isaac Prilleltensky Free traits and restorative niches, Brian Little 's own concepts

In this episode, Andrew Soren is joined by organizational psychologist Ryan Fehr to explore how gratitude and social sustainability shape the quality of our relationships at work, and why those relationships are central to whether work feels meaningful, energizing, and fair. Ryan is a Professor of Management and Michael G. Foster Endowed Professor at the University of Washington’s Foster School of Business, where his research focuses on building positive relationships, leadership, gratitude, compassion, forgiveness, solitude, and social burnout. In this conversation, he helps clarify what gratitude really is: a feeling of appreciation for benefits that come from outside ourselves. At work, that means recognizing the ways other people contribute to our progress, wellbeing, and sense of belonging. Andrew and Ryan dig into why gratitude can be so powerful in organizations, and why it can backfire when it feels forced, uneven, or disconnected from fairness and respect. They also discuss Ryan’s work on social sustainability: the ability to build relationships that energize us rather than exhaust us. This conversation offers a practical look at what it means to feel that we matter at work. And, you’ll learn what leaders, teams, and individuals can do to build relationships that are meaningful enough to sustain us. Key Takeaways Gratitude can strengthen workplace relationships by helping people feel seen, valued, and connected. Appreciation has to be authentic and fair. When gratitude is unevenly distributed, it can create resentment instead of belonging. Social sustainability is about building relationships that give energy rather than quietly draining it. Busy professionals may be less lonely than socially burned out. They are surrounded by interaction, but missing the kinds of connection that actually restore them. Why This Episode Matters Meaningful work depends on more than purpose or personal motivation. It is deeply shaped by the relationships around us. When people feel appreciated, treated fairly, and connected to others, work is more likely to feel energizing and worthwhile. When they feel unseen, overextended, or socially depleted, even meaningful work can become exhausting. Ryan Fehr’s research helps explain why gratitude, fairness, and social sustainability belong at the center of the conversation about meaningful work. About Our Guest Ryan Fehr is a Professor of Management and Michael G. Foster Endowed Professor at the University of Washington’s Foster School of Business. His research focuses on building positive relationships in organizations, with particular emphasis on gratitude, forgiveness, compassion, leadership, solitude, and social burnout. He teaches courses in leadership, negotiation, personal change, positive organizational scholarship, and organizational development. Ryan also writes Sustainably Social, a Substack focused on evidence-based lessons for building relationships without burning out, and is the author of the forthcoming book I’d Love to, Just Not Today: Beat Social Burnout and Build Relationships That Don’t Exhaust You . Mentioned in This Episode Connect with Ryan at University of Washington School of Business Sustainably Social by Ryan Fehr Greater Good Science Center: Gratitude at Work Three Research-Backed Tips for a Grateful Workplace The Grateful Workplace: A Multilevel Model of Gratitude in Organizations I’d Love to, Just Not Today: Beat Social Burnout and Build Relationships That Don’t Exhaust You

In this episode, Andrew Soren is joined by executive coach and humour ambassador Bea Bincze for a conversation about why humor, playfulness, and what she calls “fun framing” deserve a bigger place in how we think about meaningful work. Meaningful work often carries a lot of weight. It matters to us, and it asks a lot of us. In many cases, it pulls people toward seriousness, perfectionism, and a sense that if the work is important, it must also feel heavy. Drawing on her own journey from finance and executive leadership into coaching and humor-based facilitation, Bea argues that humor is more than a distraction from meaningful work. It can be one of the things that makes meaningful work more sustainable, creative, relational, and human. Together, Andrew and Bea explore how humor can reduce stress, soften perfectionism, strengthen psychological safety, and help people working in high-stakes environments cope more skillfully with challenge, failure, and suffering. They also talk about humergy, the energizing force humor brings into a room, and how leaders can create the kind of small, safe “micro experiments” that make more playfulness possible at work. Key Takeaways Humor is not just about being a comedian. It is about creating moments of lightness, connection, perspective, and relief. Meaningful work can become heavy, and humor can help make it more sustainable without making it less serious. Bea’s concept of fun framing offers a way to reframe stressful or perfectionistic situations with more playfulness and flexibility. Humor can increase trust, creativity, team connection, and psychological safety. Leaders can create safer conditions for people to experiment with more warmth, levity, and human energy. In care work, education, coaching, and other purpose-driven settings, humor can be a powerful way to cope with stress and stay connected to others. Why This Episode Matters A lot of conversations about meaningful work focus on purpose, contribution, and impact. Those conversations matter, but they can also become heavy. This episode introduces a different ingredient: humor. Bea Bincze helps reframe humor as a practical leadership and wellbeing skill rather than something extra or trivial. For listeners doing serious, values-driven work, this conversation offers a reminder that joy, lightness, and laughter do not undermine meaning. They can help us carry it better. About Our Guest Bea Bincze is an executive coach, trainer, speaker, and humor ambassador who helps leaders and teams use humor more intentionally to reduce stress, improve connection, and support healthier, more effective workplaces. Before moving into coaching, she worked in senior finance leadership roles, including as a CFO, and now brings that organizational experience into her work with leaders and teams. She is also the author of Perfectly Imperfect: Fun-Framing Playbook , a practical guide to reframing perfectionism, reducing stress, and laughing more in everyday life and work.

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren is joined by Stanford design leader and life design pioneer Bill Burnett for a conversation about what it means to build a meaningful life, and why that question is bigger than work alone. Bill brings a design thinking lens to the topic meaning: how do we move beyond transactional living and create a life that feels psychologically rich, connected, and fully alive? Together, he and Andrew explore a set of practical mindsets that can help us approach our lives with more curiosity, flexibility, and intention. They also talk about an important tension in the meaning conversation: while meaningful work can be a powerful source of energy and purpose, it can also tip into obsession, burnout, and exploitation when our identities become too tightly wrapped around it. Bill offers a refreshing alternative that expands meaning beyond career success and into community, experimentation, and the relationships that shape who we become. Key Takeaways Meaningful work matters, but a meaningful life cannot rest on work alone. Design thinking offers a practical way to approach life: stay curious, prototype, and learn by trying things. Mindsets like wonder, radical acceptance, and availability can help us move out of purely transactional living and into richer experiences of meaning. The healthiest way to pursue meaningful work may be to stay fully engaged and calmly attached, committed, but not consumed. Formative communities play a critical role in a good life by helping us become the kinds of people we want to be. Too much meaning in work can have a dark side, including burnout, blurred boundaries, and vulnerability to exploitation. Why This Episode Matters A lot of conversations about meaning focus on finding the right job, the right purpose, or the right passion. This episode broadens that frame. Bill Burnett reminds us that meaning is not just something we discover once and secure forever. It is something we design over time through our attention, our relationships, our habits, and our willingness to stay open to what life is asking of us. For listeners who want meaningful work but also want a sustainable, psychologically rich life, this conversation offers both language and tools. About Our Guest Bill Burnett is an Adjunct Professor and Executive Director of the Life Design Lab at Stanford, where he has helped thousands of students and professionals apply design thinking to life and career decisions. Trained as a product designer, he has worked in both startups and Fortune 100 companies, including Apple, where he designed award-winning laptops, and in the toy industry, where he worked on Star Wars action toys. He is the co-author of Designing Your Life and Designing Your New Work Life , and his work bridges design, meaning, and human flourishing in ways that are both practical and deeply resonant. Mentioned in This Episode Designing Your Life by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans Designing Your New Work Life by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans Fully Alive by Design newsletter Free Life Design worksheets and tools

In this episode, Andrew is joined by psychology and philosophy researcher Joffrey Fuhrer to explore the critical role of self-transcendence and positive impact in experiencing meaningful work. Drawing on his empirical research into well-being and morality, Joffrey challenges the modern, highly individualized pursuit of happiness, arguing instead that true meaning requires an outward focus and a tangible contribution to others. Together, Andrew and Joffrey examine how the historical drift from collective well-being to self-centeredness has impoverished our experience of work, and how reintroducing pro-sociality and service can act as an antidote to existential burnout. Key Takeaways Meaning in life and work is incomplete without actually having a positive impact. This is called self-transcendence, and it is often missing when we define or measure meaning in life. When we experience existential crises or meaningless work, we often collapse inward into a self-centred "black hole"; engaging in service forces an outward focus that restores our sense of mattering. The psychological feeling of meaning is distinct from an objectively meaningful life, which research shows is deeply tied to morality and pro-social behaviour rather than selfish pursuits. Self-transcendence at work doesn't require massive, consequential impact; it can be found in everyday moments of "flow" and small, intrinsically motivated acts of helping others. Why This Episode Matters Modern workplace culture often treats well-being and meaning as purely individual pursuits—finding your personal "why" or optimizing your own happiness. This conversation challenges that isolation, revealing how our intense focus on the self might actually be what keeps us from feeling that our work matters. By distinguishing between simply feeling valuable and tangibly contributing to a collective, this episode reframes meaning as a deeply pro-social act, offering a pathway out of the self-centered exhaustion of modern work. About Our Guest Joffrey Fuhrer is a researcher in psychology and philosophy whose work explores the nature of the good life, meaning, well-being, and morality. Drawing on both empirical research and philosophical inquiry, he examines how self-transcendence, prosocial behavior, and positive impact shape our experience of meaning in life and work. He is currently leading a research project funded by the Young Universities for the Future of Europe initiative. Connect with him on LinkedIn .

A Note Before You Listen We are sharing this episode in memory of Dr. Isaac Prilleltensky, who passed away on May 7, 2026. Isaac was a giant in the field of positive psychology — a scholar, a humanist, and a tireless advocate for fairness and well-being. He touched the lives of tens of thousands of students, researchers, and practitioners around the world, and his influence on this podcast, and on our work, runs deep. We are grateful this conversation exists, and we hope it introduces him — or reintroduces him — to a new generation of listeners. About This Episode Dr. Isaac Prilleltensky was Mautner Endowed Chair in Community Well-Being and Professor of Educational and Psychological Studies at the University of Miami — as well as an internationally renowned keynote speaker, author, researcher, and well-being advocate. In this conversation, Andrew and Isaac explore the importance of meaningful work and mattering. Drawing from decades of scholarly research on justice, fairness, and well-being, Isaac makes the case that we cannot thrive as individuals unless the systems around us are designed to help us do so. He unpacks what it truly means to feel valued through recognition while adding value through meaningful contribution — and why these are among the most overlooked drivers of workplace engagement. For people managers and leaders, this episode offers concrete ways to foster what Isaac called a "WE culture" — where fairness, dignity, and belonging are prioritized over individual pursuits, and where everyone has a fighting chance to matter. There is no wellness without fairness. That was Isaac's north star. We think you'll feel it in every minute of this conversation.

In this episode, Andrew is joined by Dr. Rodney Schmaltz , a psychology professor at MacEwan University, to explore what the evidence actually says about productivity, meaningful work, and how we structure our days, and where the popular advice gets it wrong. Rod's perspective is shaped by two research streams that turn out to have more in common than they first appear: studying how people thrive at work, and studying why people believe things that aren't supported by evidence. That combination gives him an unusually clear-eyed view of the productivity myths and workplace assumptions that so many of us accept without question. Together, Andrew and Rod move from myth-busting to a set of research-backed principles called Boice's Rules, originally developed for academics struggling with procrastination and writing, that turn out to apply remarkably well to anyone trying to do meaningful work more sustainably. Key Takeaways Purpose tends to be a more durable source of motivation than enjoyment, and recognizing why a task matters can carry us through the parts of work we don't love. The way we begin our workday sets its tone more than we realize; even a small ritual of easing in rather than diving straight into demands can shift the entire day. Small, consistent bursts of effort (or, what Boice called "brief daily sessions") consistently outperform the intense, last-minute pushes most of us rely on. Knowing good work habits and actually building them into your environment are very different things, and the gap between them is where most advice falls flat. Why This Episode Matters Many people experience frustration that they're not doing enough, working the right way, or finding enough meaning in what they do — and a steady stream of productivity content tends to make that worse rather than better. Rod takes those claims seriously enough to test them, and found that the path to a better workday is less about discipline or passion and more about small, deliberate design choices that actually hold up under scrutiny. About Our Guest Dr. Rodney Schmaltz is a psychology professor at MacEwan University in Edmonton, where he teaches and researches at the intersection of workplace productivity and the science of belief. His work focuses on evidence-based approaches to thriving at work, alongside strategies to help people become better, more critical consumers of information, including the kind that shows up in our LinkedIn feeds.

In this episode, Andrew moderates a live panel hosted by the Intellectual Property Institute of Canada (IPIC) , a professional association representing over 1,800 IP lawyers, patent agents, and trademark agents across Canada, now celebrating its 100th year. The conversation brings together three IP professionals to explore what thriving actually looks like inside a demanding, high-stakes profession, not in theory, but in the day-to-day realities of the work. IP professionals face real and familiar pressures: billable hours, client expectations, collaboration across competitive environments, and the challenge of finding meaning in highly specialized, often invisible work. This episode grew out of IPIC's strategic commitment to making well-being a priority, and what emerges is a frank, grounded conversation about what it actually takes to thrive. Together, Andrew and the panelists examine how well-being shifts across a career, what it means to struggle well rather than perform happiness, and how the profession's culture, both its demands and its community, shapes the conditions for a life of meaningful work. Key Takeaways Well-being is not one-size-fits-all. Understanding what “it” means for you is the only way to be "in it to win it." The shift from individual contributor to leader often requires finding new sources of meaning, learning to derive satisfaction from others' success rather than your own technical output. Creating "brave spaces" rather than safe spaces means making room for difficult conversations, not despite a commitment to well-being, but because of it. Struggling well is different from being happy, and the most powerful thing a team can offer someone going through something hard is not positivity, but presence. Why This Episode Matters Professional services environments are often places where well-being initiatives can feel like add-ons or perks masking unchanged structures and cultures. This conversation pushes back on that, not with sweeping prescriptions, but with honest reflection from professionals who are living these questions. About the Panellists and IPIC IPIC is Canada's professional association for intellectual property professionals, representing lawyers, patent agents, and trademark agents nationwide. The panellists, Dominique Hussey, Jaime-Lynn Kraft, and Ryan Holland , bring perspectives spanning senior leadership, mid-career practice, and earlier-stage professional development within the IP field. This conversation reflects IPIC's broader commitment, championed during Nathaniel Lipkus ' presidency, to making well-being a defining feature of a world-class IP community.

This is part two of our conversation with Dr. Joel Vos . If you haven't listened to part one yet, we recommend starting there first. In this episode, Andrew and Joel pick up where they left off, moving from the taxonomy of meaning at work into some of the harder questions about what happens when meaning goes unrealized, and what that costs individuals and societies alike. Joel draws on Albert Camus, his own clinical experience with radicalized individuals, and a systematic review of over 600 studies to make a case that extremism and polarization are, at their core, meaning problems, and that understanding them as such changes how we respond. Together, Andrew and Joel examine the MOSAIC framework Joel developed to explain how people cope when meaningful lives feel out of reach, and what leaders, organizations, and institutions can actually do to address that gap, including Joel's argument that meaningful work should be recognized as a human right. Key Takeaways When people cannot realize the meanings that matter most to them, and non-extreme strategies repeatedly fail, radicalization becomes a predictable response rather than an aberration. Joel's concept of "existential compassion" offers a different starting point for engaging with people whose views we find troubling: genuine curiosity about what they actually want from their lives, before any attempt at debate or correction. The MOSAIC framework reframes coping with unfulfilled meaning as something that can be understood, supported, and redirected toward more constructive forms of change. Joel argues that protecting people's capacity to live meaningfully, including in their work, needs to move from an abstract aspiration to a legal and institutional commitment. Why This Episode Matters The polarization, disengagement, and quiet desperation showing up in workplaces and in politics are often treated as separate problems with separate solutions. Joel's work suggests they may share a common root, and that organizations and leaders who understand that connection are better positioned to respond to it honestly, rather than just managing its symptoms. About Our Guest Dr. Joel Vos is a Senior Lecturer (Research) in the Doctorate in Counselling Psychology at the Metanoia Institute in London. His work sits at the intersection of meaning in life research, existential psychology, and socioeconomic history, and he brings both rigorous empirical grounding and decades of clinical practice to this conversation. His book The Economics of Meaning in Life draws on a systematic review of thousands of studies on meaning, economics, and wellbeing.

In this episode, Andrew is joined by Joel Vos , researcher, philosopher, and psychotherapist, to explore where our ideas about meaningful work actually come from, and how the broader economic and historical context shapes what people seek from their jobs today. Joel approaches meaningful work from the outside in. Rather than starting with the workplace, he starts with evolutionary psychology, philosophy, and centuries of social history, and uses that vantage point to explain why the very question "what does my work mean to me?" is a uniquely modern one. Together, Andrew and Joel examine how we moved from a world where meaning was assigned by tradition and authority to one where individuals are expected to construct it themselves, and what that shift has cost us, both personally and collectively. Key Takeaways Meaning in life has seven identifiable components, including motivation, values, dignity, and a sense that your own experience matters, and all of them show up in how people relate to their work. Joel identifies six types of meaning people find at work, ranging from the material and hedonistic to the social, ethical, and existential, and research suggests the types we prioritize have real consequences for wellbeing. The expectation that work should be your primary source of meaning is relatively new. Sometimes, a job that simply funds a meaningful life outside of work is enough. The shift toward a meaning-oriented economy is real, but so is the risk of "meaning-washing": organizations using the language of purpose to manipulate rather than genuinely support the people who work for them. Why This Episode Matters We live in a moment when people are increasingly unwilling to spend their working lives on things that feel hollow, and increasingly uncertain about where to look instead. Joel's historical and philosophical lens offers something rare: not a framework for optimizing meaning at work, but a genuine reckoning with why we want it in the first place, and what gets in the way of actually having it. About Our Guest Dr. Joel Vos is a Senior Lecturer in Counselling Psychology at the Metanoia Institute in London. His work sits at the intersection of meaning in life research, existential psychology, and socioeconomic history, and he brings both rigorous empirical grounding and decades of clinical practice to this conversation. His book The Economics of Meaning in Life draws on a systematic review of thousands of studies on meaning, economics, and wellbeing.

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren finds himself in the hot seat. Dr. Llewellyn E. van Zyl , positive psychology pracademic and a returning guest of the show, steps in as interviewer to explore the story behind our host and what happens to the person underneath when they keep becoming someone new. Andrew has moved across a wide range of roles over his career: theatre producer, marketing professional, executive coach, organizational designer, and now Executive Director of the International Positive Psychology Association . Together, they trace what each transformation cost, what it left behind, and what Andrew has learned about identity, suffering, and meaning that scholarship alone could not have taught him. Key Takeaways Every major transition carries grief. The loss of self-efficacy that comes with stepping into a new role is real, worth acknowledging, and a signal worth paying attention to. Tension is information. Learning to distinguish between harmonious and dissonant tension across roles, values, and identities is a navigational skill that develops over time. Meaning and suffering are not opposites. Meaningful work often involves real cost, and the more useful question is how to stay inside that work without being consumed by it. Our core questions such as who am I and how do I bring more of that into what I'm doing, may change over the course of a lifetime, but often find their ways back in new forms. Why This Episode Matters Many conversations about meaningful work in this podcast have focused on how to find it, design it, or measure it. This one goes somewhere less often visited: what it actually costs to keep becoming someone new, and what remains stable underneath all the roles we play. About Our Guest Dr. Llewellyn E. van Zyl is a professor of positive psychology at the Optentia Research Unit, North-West University of South Africa, and Chief Solutions Architect at Psynalytics. His work sits at the intersection of artificial intelligence, employee wellbeing, and the measurement of human flourishing. He is the Program Chair of the IPPA Virtual Summit on AI and the Future of Wellbeing , taking place March 23–27, 2026. Andrew Soren is the Founder & CEO of Eudaimonic by Design, a global network helping organizations design environments where people thrive, act with purpose, and deliver their best. He is also the Executive Director of the International Positive Psychology Association . For over 25 years, Andrew has helped leading organizations foster values-based leadership, meaningful work, and well-being at scale.

In this episode, Andrew is joined by Kathy Miller , a former senior operations executive whose career spans large-scale manufacturing, unionized environments, and global operations leadership. Kathy brings a rare perspective shaped by decades of leading under intense performance pressure, followed by formal training in positive psychology. Rather than approaching meaningful work as a matter of motivation or engagement tactics, Kathy focuses on how work is designed, how standards are held, and how leaders relate to people when conditions are demanding. Her experience “on the concrete,” not just in offices, grounds the conversation in the realities many leaders face daily. Together, Andrew and Kathy explore what it means to create meaningful work in operational environments, where the consequences of leadership decisions are immediate and visible, and where dignity and performance must coexist. Key Takeaways Meaningful work is shaped less by inspiration and more by how systems are designed and sustained under pressure. Dignity and high standards are not competing values, they depend on one another. Leaders communicate meaning through everyday behaviors such as feedback, presence, and accountability, not just through vision or intent. Operational environments reveal how leadership choices affect people when work is physical, repetitive, and time constrained. Why This Episode Matters Many conversations about meaningful work focus on autonomy, purpose, or culture at a conceptual level. This episode brings the conversation into environments where work is highly structured, performance is tightly measured, and leadership is tested daily. Kathy challenges the idea that care for people requires lowering expectations and offers a grounded view of how meaning is built through systems, relationships, and consistent leadership choices. The conversation is especially relevant for leaders navigating complexity, fatigue, and pressure while still wanting to take people seriously. About Our Guest Kathy Miller is a senior manufacturing executive, author, and leadership advisor with more than 25 years of global experience across aerospace, automotive, and diversified industrial organizations. Over the course of her career, she has led multi-billion-dollar operations and worked across hundreds of plants worldwide, earning recognition for her work in operational excellence and culture change. Kathy is the author of MORE Is Better: Leading Operations with Meaning, Optimism, and Relationships for Excellence , and co-author of Steel Toes and Stilettos . She holds a Master of Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, an MBA, and is an ICF-certified leadership coach.

In this episode, Andrew is joined by Steve Taylor , professor of leadership and creativity at the Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) Business School, to explore how art, aesthetics, and sensory experience shape meaningful work. Steve brings a rare perspective as both a leadership scholar and a practicing playwright. Rather than treating leadership as a set of competencies or frameworks, he invites us to see it as a craft, one that develops through judgment, reflection, and lived experience. Together, Andrew and Steve examine how we come to know work not only through ideas and analysis, but through our bodies, our senses, and our relationships with others. Key Takeaways: Meaningful work is not only something we think about, but something we sense and experience through our bodies and relationships. Organizational aesthetics offers a way to understand power, ethics, and culture beyond formal structures and rational models. Art and reflective practice help leaders engage with complexity rather than prematurely simplify it. Discernment, the ability to notice what truly matters, including what is missing or unexpected, is a critical leadership capability. Why This Episode Matters As organizations prioritize speed, clarity, and efficiency, many people feel increasingly disconnected from the human experience of work. This conversation challenges the assumption that meaning can be designed or optimized through logic alone. Instead, it offers a deeper view of meaningful work rooted in craft, reflection, and the courage to stay present with uncertainty. About Our Guest Steve Taylor is a professor of leadership and creativity at Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI), where his research focuses on organizational aesthetics and reflective practice. He is the author of several books on leadership and organizations and an accomplished playwright whose work has been staged internationally. His scholarship and artistic practice shape the lens he brings to this conversation.

In this episode, Andrew is joined by Sue der Kinderen , organizational health psychologist and researcher. Rather than focusing only on how people feel at work, Sue invites us to pay closer attention to what people actually do . Drawing on her research into eudaimonic well-being at work, Sue introduces a behavioral view of meaningful work, one rooted in personal growth, pursuit of purpose, and positive relationships. Together, Andrew and Sue explore how these behaviors show up in real organizational settings, why context and culture matter so much, and how leaders can create environments that support reflection, courage, and sustainable well-being. Key Takeaways Meaningful work is not only about well-being, but about well-doing through everyday behaviors Eudaimonic work shows up through personal growth, pursuit of purpose, and positive relationships These behaviors are partly stable but strongly shaped by work climate and leadership Reflection and social support are essential for sustaining meaningful work, especially during change Eudaimonia requires courage and discomfort, not constant positivity Why This Episode Matters As work becomes faster, more complex, and increasingly shaped by technology, many people struggle to find meaning in what they do. This conversation offers a grounded alternative to abstract ideas about purpose by showing how meaningful work can be built through concrete actions and supportive contexts. About Our Guest Sue der Kinderen is an organizational health psychologist, coach, and thought leader with over 20 years of experience at the intersection of work, health, and human potential. Originally trained as a counselling psychologist in South Africa, she later completed a PhD in Organizational Psychology at the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, where her research focused on eudaimonic well-being behaviors at work. Through her platform Ncourage, Sue translates psychological science into speaking, thought leadership, and bespoke workplace interventions, with a strong emphasis on social support and peer reflection as drivers of sustainable change.

Work does not happen in a vacuum. It happens in spaces that shape how we feel, think, connect, and grow. In this episode, Andrew sits down with Jenna Mikus to explore what it means to design for human flourishing. Jenna brings a rare interdisciplinary lens that bridges architecture, wellbeing science, organizational design, and philosophy. Together, they unpack the concept of eudaimonic design and what it looks like in practice, from homes and workplaces to educational and community environments. Key Takeaways Meaningful work depends on the environments that surround us, including physical, organizational, and social conditions. Eudaimonic design blends external structure with personal agency, recognizing that flourishing emerges through interaction, not control. Inclusive design strengthens wellbeing for everyone by offering choice, flexibility, and dignity across diverse needs and life stages. Sensory experience, awe, and delight play an underappreciated role in motivation, creativity, and connection at work. Designing for flourishing requires interdisciplinary thinking and a willingness to sit with complexity and uncertainty. Why This Episode Matters As organizations rethink work, space, and culture in a post-pandemic world, this conversation offers a deeper foundation for those decisions. Rather than asking how to bring people back or drive performance, we should consider what conditions help people become their best selves. This episode expands the meaning of meaningful work by showing how design, wellbeing, and purpose intersect in everyday environments. About Our Guest Jenna Mikus is a strategic advisor and researcher who brings together architectural science and wellbeing science to shape environments that support human flourishing. She is the Managing Partner of Eudae Group, where she guides organizations in designing spaces and experiences that elevate health, belonging, creativity, and innovation. Her work draws on more than twenty years of consulting experience, a background in engineering and design, and ongoing research across Human Buildings Interaction, salutogenic design, and inclusive environments. Jenna also serves as the Flourishing by Design Chair and holds fellowship appointments with the University of Melbourne’s Centre for Wellbeing Science and Queensland University of Technology’s Centre for Decent Work and Industry. Resources Follow Jenna on LinkedIn Eudae Group Flourishing by Design (FxD) community of practice University of Melbourne Centre for Wellbeing Science Queensland University of Technology Centre for Decent Work and Industry

In this episode, Andrew speaks with Bree Groff about why our days at work deserve protection on their own terms and how leaders can build healthier, more human team environments. Together, they explore why burnout often signals a deeper business issue, how time becomes the most undervalued resource in the workplace, and what it looks like to create systems that support real people rather than extract from them. Bree Groff is a workplace culture expert and author of Today Was Fun , with a career spent guiding leaders at companies like Microsoft, Google, Pfizer, and Memorial Sloan Kettering through complex change. Key Takeaways Human happiness is not a business case. Bree argues that engagement is simply human happiness in corporate language, and she invites leaders to value the finite days people give to work rather than justify them through productivity gains. Burnout has structural roots. Chronic overwork often reveals a broken business model. When the math no longer works, leaders must rethink priorities, resources, and expectations instead of placing the burden on individual resilience. Practical systems make work more human. Bree shares several tools that help teams reset and reconnect, including protected “golden time,” deep work blocks, and open narration when the workload is unusually heavy. These small practices build trust and reduce isolation. Fun and hard work can coexist. The goal is not to avoid effort but to create an environment where people can show up fully and work hard without sacrificing well-being or dignity. Joy, collaboration, and emotional steadiness help teams move through demanding moments together. Why This Episode Matters Meaningful work requires leaders who understand that every workday is a real day in someone’s life, and that structure, pacing, and expectations shape whether people thrive or slowly burn out. Bree’s insights offer a blueprint for designing team environments that honor time, reduce unnecessary suffering, and rebuild the human connections that make work sustainable. These ideas have clear implications for anyone responsible for people, culture, or performance. About Our Guest Bree Groff is a workplace culture expert and author of Today Was Fun: A Book About Work (Seriously) . She advises senior leaders on transformation, culture, and organizational change, informed by her work with Microsoft, Google, Pfizer, and Memorial Sloan Kettering. Bree’s career includes serving as CEO of NOBL Collective and working as a Senior Advisor at SYPartners. Her approach to work centers on humanity, practical design, and the belief that our days are precious and worth spending well, which sits at the heart of this conversation. Resources Bree’s website: https://www.breegroff.com Today Was Fun: A Book About Work (Seriously)

Healthcare workers enter their roles with deep values and a desire to help others, yet many find themselves in systems that constrain their ability to act on those values. In this episode, Laura Holford and Anu Gorukanti explore how community, creativity, and spirituality give clinicians a way to restore agency and reconnect with their humanity. The trio discuss moral distress, moral injury, and the heavy emotional load that comes with caring for people inside profit-driven institutions. Laura and Anu describe how their work at Introspective Spaces creates room for vulnerability across hierarchy, rebuilds trust among clinicians, and strengthens the capacity to show up with presence. Key Takeaways Moral injury affects many people in healthcare: Systemic constraints, understaffing, and inequities create powerlessness, isolation, and grief that clinicians often carry alone. Community care restores agency: Gathering across roles allows clinicians to see each other’s humanity and rebuild connection, trust, and collective strength. Creativity and spirituality support sustainability: Practices like the Artist’s Way help clinicians return to their values, slow down, and show up with integrity. Mutuality improves patient care: When clinicians tend to their own well-being, patient outcomes improve and the work becomes more sustainable. Why This Episode Matters Meaningful work requires environments where people feel connected, valued, and aligned with their purpose. This episode shows how collective care, shared reflection, and creative practice support real change. The conversation offers leaders and teams a model for building workplaces where humanity and healing can thrive. About Our Guests Laura Holford, RN MSN is an oncology certified nurse and public health nurse in Sacramento, California. She focuses on reducing nursing burnout and moral distress and works to rebuild accountability in healthcare. Laura draws on liberation theology and her background as a campus minister and lay community pastor. She helps people develop reflective and spiritual practices that support meaningful work and clear action. Anu Gorukanti, MD is a pediatric hospitalist and public health advocate at a county hospital in Los Angeles. Her work centers on health equity, racial justice, and the role of contemplation in social change. Anu believes that clarity about personal values creates space for a more authentic life and more compassionate systems. Resources to Learn More Introspective Spaces The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron Emergent Strategy by adrienne maree brown The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker The Wounded Healer by Henri Nouwen