Are you fed up with the never ending crises in the news? Are you looking for Order amidst the Disorder? Listen to the Disorder Podcast as we offer forward thinking solutions to the biggest challenges of the day. We are living through an age of unrivaled disorder: an out-of-control Trump Administration, never ending scandals, escalating threats from China, Iran, and Russia, and the rapid march of destabilizing tech. The “good guys” - rules-based ordering centrists - are on the back foot, while neo-populist strongmen gain ground by fuelling more and more chaos. But there are ways out of this mess. Join us as we Order the Disorder. Each week, host Jason Pack, co-hosts Jane Kinnimont and Mark Lobel, world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, present their solutions to problems like: why are centrists losing and populist strongmen winning? How do we save our democracies? How do we deal with threats from Disorderers like Iran and Russia? And how do we build multilateral coalitions that work, how can we regulate AI, defend Ukraine, and fight climate change? All in a world without American leadership? Disorder is the go-to podcast for anyone who wants intelligent, thoughtful solutions to the Disorder engulfing our mad mad mad mad world. To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club Website: https://disordershow.com/
Ep 198. Tomorrow's Disorder — Florence Gaub on Our Flawed Relationship with the Future
This week on Disorder latest, Jason is joined by Dr Florence Gaub, futurist, military strategist, and Director of the Research Division at the NATO Defense College. Florence has spent her career thinking professionally about something most of us do rather badly: systematically plan for the future. Her book, The Future: A User’s Guide, was a best seller in German. It is now available in English from Hurst. It argues that the future is not simply something that happens to us. We imagine it, fear it, misunderstand it and — crucially — in thinking about it in certain flawed ways, help create it. Jason and Florence discuss why humans are simultaneously obsessed with the future and terrible at thinking about it: from catastrophising and the Cassandra Complex to optimism bias, surprise and science fiction. They explore why governments are so often blindsided by seemingly predictable crises — and whether strategic foresight can help Orderers stop responding to yesterday’s problems. In Ordering the Disorder, they discuss how imagining positive futures might itself be a tool for Ordering the Disorder. Producer: Sam Cluley Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Buy Florence Gaub’s The Future: A User’s Guide: https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/the-future/ Read about Florence and her work at the NATO Defense College: https://www.ndc.nato.int/research/researchers/florence-gaub/ Listen to Florence on NATO 2099 and strategic foresight: https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2024/12/20/nato-through-time-podcast-nato-2099-with-dr-florence-gaub Read Florence on futurism, geopolitics and the risks of stumbling into wider war: https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-03/florence-gaub-natos-futurist-you-can-slide-into-a-world-war-even-if-nobody-wants-it.html For our collaboration with the Epstein Book Club who are running our Andrew Lownie Episode see here: https://www.epsteinfilesbookclub.com/the-british-component-disorder-podcast-cross-post/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 197. Re-Run: The Rise of the Neo-Populists
For summer recess, we return to our favourite episodes of all time where we explain the very essence of our conception of the Enduring Disorder as a period in which Disordering Neo-populists have come to power and have made the world more disorderly so they can stay in power. If you didn’t hear this when it came out on Sept 19, 2023--when we launched--I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now. Over the past few decades leaders like Trump, Orban, and Bolsonaro have ridden a wave of popular outrage to rise to power. But what came first: the Neo-Populists or the era of Global Enduring Disorder? In this episode we chart the rise of the Neo-Populists, their impact on global order, and what we can do to stop them. Sean Wilentz explains the difference between real populism (like Bernie Sanders) and ‘faux’ or neo-populists (like Trump), while Anne Applebaum takes us through the missed opportunities and co-ordination failures of the post-Cold War years. For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: For more from Anne Applebaum, visit https://linktr.ee/anneapplebaum For more on Sean Wilentz, visit https://history.princeton.edu/people/sean-wilentz For more on Jonathan Winer, visit https://www.mei.edu/profile/jonathan-m-winer For more on Jamie Shea, visit https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/our-people/jamie-shea Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 196. Rule of Lies—the origin story of Putin’s Russia with Jamison Firestone
This week, Jason is joined by a real life Mega-Orderer--Jamison Firestone, acclaimed lawyer, author, and activist. He witnessed firsthand Russia's descent from the promise of the Yeltsin years into the corruption and authoritarianism of Vladimir Putin's regime.Firestone was also the employer and close colleague of Sergei Magnitsky, whose death after exposing a massive tax fraud inspired the Magnitsky sanctions now used by democracies around the world to target corrupt officials and human rights abusers.Jamison joins Disorder to discuss his powerful new memoir, Rule of Lies, and to unpick piece by piece from his insider tales how Russia's descent into kleptocracy happened.Jason and Jamison also reflect on their mutual friend Sir Bill Browder, the legacy of the martyred Alexei Navalny, and why Navalny's extraordinary moral courage bears comparison with figures such as Socrates and even Jesus. As they Order the Disorder, they turn from diagnosis to solutions. Should the West finally confiscate the roughly $300 billion of frozen Russian state assets? Why has Belgium remained one of the principal obstacles? What can be done to make it give up the Goose that lays the Golden Egg? And could coordinated international action overcome the legal and political barriers? If democracies are serious about confronting authoritarianism, this conversation argues that defending the rule of law requires more than sanctions—it requires the courage to act. Producer: Sam Cluley Subscribe to our Substack https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube -https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links:Jamison Firestone:https://jamisonfirestone.com/ Buy Rule of Lies:https://www.harpercollins.com/products/rule-of-lies-jamison-r-firestone Justice for Sergei Magnitsky:https://russian-untouchables.com/eng/Punish Putin campaign:https://punishputin.com/ Listen to our first Disorder episode with Sir Bill Browder:https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/a36160dede2b990a59c34c3c4e8eeece The Magnitsky Act (U.S. Congress):https://www.congress.gov/bill/112th-congress/house-bill/4405 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 195. Trump, Iran, and the Epstein Files
In this episode of Disorder latest, Jason updates on the for-ever war in Iran and the Straight of Hormuz and how the disorder we are experiencing over there is conceptually connected to the bigger concepts of the Disorder pod: the Global Enduring Disorder and the rise of the Neopopulists. He does this via a conversation on the Disinformation Detox with Nolan Higdon, which we air with our own intro. Producer: Sam Cluely Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: The U.S. and Iran standoff over the Strait of Hormuz intensifies https://www.npr.org/2026/07/15/nx-s1-5894582/us-iran-updates Disorder is through to the next judging round for the News, Politics & Current Affairs category of the British Podcast Awards. You can see the full longlist here: https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/longlist-2026 Vote for Disorder in the British Podcast Awards listeners choice here https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting Watch The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0 Subscribe to the Disinfo Detox: https://www.youtube.com/@DisinfoDetox Subscribe to Gaslight Gazette: https://www.nolanhigdon.substack.com Learn more at: https://www.NolanHigdon.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 194. Farage vs Count Binface, reflections on the NATO Summit and America
Fresh from her trip to Ankara for the NATO Summit, Jane rejoins Jason to discuss what she learned about NATO, the mood among the allies, and why the Europeans are moving further away from Trump. Plus: Farage’s resignation and by-election, how that is connected to the Marine Le Pen court ruling in France, and then to Order the Disorder: Jason argues that we should look no further than the America’s Founding Fathers and the principles they articulated and lived by. For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Vote for Disorder in the British Podcast Awards listeners choice here https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting Watch The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vFfnhFNsJ0 Listen to our episode with Frank Vogl - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/ZDU5ZDRjNTItMDg5ZS0xMWYwLWI5ZGItN2YwZDA5MmE4ZWVh Listen to Amb. Minuto-Rizzo about the NATO summit: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1bHVQ2n7sLUUQnxtLPdjvv On Farage and British dislike of political sleaze - https://x.com/yougov/status/2075501188036899216?s=46&t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 193. America’s 250th and a Reformed drug smuggler on how to tackle the narcotics industry and Epstein
We start the episode with Jason’s reflections on the July 4th holiday and America’s Big Birthday. For more on this check out the first YouTube below in the Links. He believes that our Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers and men of tremendous principle who trusted experts. Therefore, to celebrate the holiday, he wanted to have someone on the pod who has lived his life courageously, respectfully, and with principle. Therefore, this week, Jason is joined by Dr Hal Bradley, reformed drug smuggler, former informant for the FBI, and author of more than 10 books. Dr Hal and Jason discuss his life story, his take on the Epstein files, and how understanding and co-operation can help us Order the Disorder. Hal showcases his revolutionary and principled life and his conversion story. He also explains how despite Trump’s big bluster about tackling drug smuggling across the border, little has been done. So what does a former drug smuggler think should be done to truly Order this Disorder? Listen to find out. For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Watch Jason explain how The Founding Fathers were Mega Orderers: https://youtu.be/_vFfnhFNsJ0 Watch/listen to Jason with Dr Alon Ben Meir talking about the situation in Iran and the status of the MoU and regional ceasefires as at the end of June: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL5UNy6Ruc&list=PLbO4E8pRmwIedcPIBowZQkbjzxJ0AXKjI Watch Jason on Dr Hal’s show - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtUvVDRQ4zs Get Dr Hal’s book, A Fox In the Lion's Den: A Fictionalized and Fact-Based Autobiography of the Life of Dr. Hal A. Bradley, here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fox-Lions-Den-Fictionalized-Autobiography/dp/B09SBY5GCY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 192. Who is funding the Houthis?
In this episode of Disorder, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Peter Salisbury, Adjunct Assistant Professor at Columbia University, and Senior Fellow at the Century Foundation, who has spent years tracking the illicit supply chains fuelling the war in Yemen. His upcoming report, launching at King's College London, is essential reading for anyone trying to understand how the Houthis went from a little-known insurgent group to a force capable of disrupting global shipping. Jane and Peter discuss how the Houthis learned to manufacture their own drones and missiles rather than simply receiving them from Iran, the outsized role China now plays in supplying the components that power this new generation of weapons, the fragile Saudi-Houthi truce since 2022, and what the changing economics of drone warfare mean for the future of arms control. For ad free listening, early release episodes and bonus episodes, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: Sam Cluley Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: The report that Pete is talking about can be found here: https://tcf.org/content/report/beyond-the-axis/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 191. Why Can’t Western governments get anything done? What do we do about trillionaires? Is the US missing out on the World Cup dividend?
This week it’s time for listener questions! And pls note that members of the Mega Orderer’s club get their questions answered first. Jane and Jason discuss: why Russia is pretending to be happy with Starmer resigning, the potential role of Turkey, Saudi, Pakistan and Egypt in Ordering the Strait of Hormuz, Elon Musk becoming the world’s first trillionaire, whether Iran and America will ever agree on anything, the US’ behaviour throughout the World Cup, and why western governments seemingly can’t get anything done and what happened to bold elected centrist leaders. For ad free listening, early release episodes and in future, full episodes of our listener questions and the unlimited right to get your questions answered, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Read: Big Tech is stoking unrest in the UK. Why? https://www.ft.com/content/0f3e33d2-0b9e-481d-a911-245d8cc01a9c?syn-25a6b1a6=1 Listen to Keen On: The Trouble with Trillionaires: Mordecai Kurz on Capitalism, Democracy, and the Second Gilded Age: https://www.keenon.tv/videos/the-trouble-with-trillionaires-mordecai-kurz-on-capitalism-democracy-and-the-second-gilded-age/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 190. An Orderly British transition is underway and the upcoming NATO summit in Ankara
Don’t you just love when decency interjects and sometimes people do the right thing, the orderly thing, the sane thing? Well voters of Makerfield have chosen order and unity over disorder and division, and now Starmer has done the right thing. The Orderly Transition to Burnham is on its way and it is an example of a prime opportunity for the institutions of Britain to showcase themselves to the domestic and international publics as orderly and functional. So Jason starts by introducing this existing moment and then pivoting to regularly scheduled programming about international ordering that still works: NATO. With the NATO Summit in Ankara fast approaching, will the fractures between Europe and America be on full display? Or will one of the world’s most successful alliances in human history come together and make a show of unity? To preview the summit and survey global affairs from peacemaking to defence spending, Jason is joined by Ambassador Alessandro Minuto-Rizzo, the President of the NATO Defense College Foundation and former Deputy Secretary General of NATO (2001-8). The duo discuss what will come out of the Ankara communique, the future of Italian politics, and as they Order the Disorder - the role of NATO in the years to come. Ambassador Minuto-Rizzo puts forth his solutions to the Ukraine war, various ideas why giving up territory might not be that important these days, and his overall philosophy of optimism and keeping calm and carrying on. It might not be how everyone would look at global affairs, but it is very interesting that a man with five decades of high level diplomatic experience has this approach. Hope you enjoy. For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: For more on the work of the Foundation: https://www.natofoundation.org/ For more on Amb Minuto-Rizzo’s background and that of the foundation: https://www.natofoundation.org/about-us/ For more on Amb Minuto-Rizzo’s comments on global security alliances: https://www.natofoundation.org/regions-at-the-centre-cooperative-security-cooperation-versus-fragmentation/ For a great pod on what Burnham needs to do for an Orderly transition: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-fourcast/id1542796249?i=1000773763527 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 189. The Armenian election and the Disorderly Caucasus
In this episode of Disorder Latest, Jason is joined by Thomas de Waal, journalist, author, and Senior Fellow at Carnegie Europe who has spent decades studying the politics, conflicts, and societies of the Caucasus and wider Eurasian region. His book ‘The Caucasus: An Introduction’, is a must read for anyone looking to understand the region—its ethnic diversity, its ties to Russia, its cults of personality, and its geopolitical importance. Jason and Thomas discuss the June 7 Armenian election—won by pro-EU incumbent Nikol Pashinyan--, the Trump negotiated peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and whether Georgia is moving permanently away from Europe and the West. For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: Sam Cluely Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Get Thomas’ book at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Caucasus-Introduction-Thomas-Waal/dp/0195399773 Listen to our previous episodes with Armen Sarkissian, Armenia’s former president https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/OWJlOTI5YTYtMDBjZC0xMWVmLTg0N2MtMmIzNDcwZTAyMDQx And for more on the Armenian election: https://apnews.com/article/armenia-election-result-pashinyan-7168ab86aa0d9f2c967171c91c9611c9 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 188. Disorder LIVE @ UNA-UK: The Disunited Kingdom, the disordered dynamics of U.S.-Iran talks, and how Hormuz affects Nigerian politics
For a special live edition of Disorder, we come to you live from the United Nations Association – UK, where Jason, Jane and Mark were joined by a special guest-- Alexis Akwagyiram, Managing Editor for Africa at Semafor. Mark and Jason discussed the latest disorder in the UK and if Andy Burnham might be able to bring Order to Britain? But will he even be able to order its bond markets? Jane and Jason look at the reigniting of fighting between Israel and Iran, and what happens next, and Alexis and Jane discussed the fallout from the disorderly war on inflation and food prices in Africa and provide the latest on Nigeria and the role of African countries in restoring some global order. For a full, unedited edition of the episode with full q and a, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: For full list of Makerfield Election candidates visit https://makerfieldcandidates.co.uk/ Watch Wes Streeting on News Agents https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VUDvtZWrtg Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 187. Iran War restarted? And Is Latin America moving to the right?
Over the weekend Iran launched waves of missiles at Israel, while Israel retaliated against military targets and a petrochemical complex in Iran, as an uneasy two-month truce appeared to break down. Trump had earlier appeared keen to avoid an escalation, telling Bibi not to respond to the first barrage of Iranian missiles. Under the surface, Israel wants to complete the job in Lebanon, but Trump wants all the wars over so he can cover up his failure. We start the ep by Jason explaining these late-breaking developments and then introducing the electoral fight between neo-populism and progressivism in one of Latin America’s most geopolitically important countries. As we pivot to the feature topic, we ask what is going on in Colombia's presidential election and will it jeopardise the country's peace agreement which former Disorder guest Jonathan Powell helped negotiate many moons ago? Might we see multiple Latin American countries moving to the neo-populism right helped by Trump - including the return of the Bolsonaro family in Brazil? What are the interests that the Trump administration is pursuing in Latin America? Is it mostly just about critical minerals or is it more of a shared worldview? And how can people in the continent pursue democracy and rights when the US and China are competing to get hold of their critical minerals? This week Jane meets distinguished human rights lawyer Viviana Krsticevic, executive director of the Center for Justice and International Law, founder of GQual and member of the UN’s independent fact-finding mission on human rights in Iran. They discuss how Vivi's childhood in Argentina under the military junta left her with a determination to fight for democracy, gender equality and human rights after seeing the costs of authoritarianism firsthand, and they discuss strategies for advancing freedom and justice despite the current age of political disorder and democratic backsliding. In the Ordering the Disorder segment they discuss, Latin America's role in global politics and how the key aspects of multilateralism are highlighted by the current search for the next UN Secretary General - likely to come from Latin America. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: For background on the electoral situation in Colombia pls consult: https://www.americasquarterly.org/article/reaction-colombia-heads-toward-polarizing-runoff/ And https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/may/30/colombia-presidential-election-vote-resurgence-political-violence Check out Vivi's interview with IranWire on human rights abuses in Iran: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFM9Z5Zyhxc For more on Colombia, read this Q&A from the International Crisis Group: https://www.crisisgroup.org/qna/latin-america-caribbean/colombia-united-states/right-and-left-vie-victory-colombia-under-us-shadow And for more of Jane's recent takes, check out her recent interview with Lewis Goodall on LBC on how Trump is redefining "ceasefire" - and not in a good way - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrjB2q7qYQQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 186. How to oust Netanyahu, and give the UAE tough love
It is our favourite time of the month, listeners questions! This week Jason and Jane take listener questions around topics including: Will Netanyahu be ousted in this year’s elections? Have the Israeli anti-Bibi bloc learned the lessons of Hungary before the next parliamentary elections? Can Reform UK be trusted to do what they say they will? Is a constantly changing leader now the norm in UK politics? Does Trump’s trip to China change anything? And what’s the Disordering role of the UAE in global politics? And should the West give the UAE a tough love approach to help them play the role of global citizen better? To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: Pls find out about the 8 June 530pm in Westminster live podcast event and join the Mega Orderers club or Pay for Substack here to attend here: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-live-podcast-at-un-association To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events like the 8 June 530pm Westminster event, visit disordershow.com/club Jane’s recommended The Economist Bagehot column on whether Britain is ungovernable https://www.economist.com/britain/2026/04/22/sir-keir-starmer-cannot-govern-he-has-only-himself-to-blame Read Will Self’s new column on Starmer as mentioned by Jane https://x.com/wself/status/2054946706723160363 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 185. Is Ukraine Winning? And how has the Iran war reshaped the Middle East? With David Tafuri
The crises across our disordered world are more interconnected than ever. As states pursue their own self-interest, genuine collective action for mutual shared benefit seems further away than ever before. How can we ever hope to Order this Disorder? To try, Jason is joined this week by his old friend David Tafuri. David previously served as the US Department of State’s Rule of Law Coordinator for Iraq, was an outside foreign policy advisor to President Obama’s campaign in 2008, has worked for the United Nations in Turkey, and is the founder and current President of the US-Kurdistan Business Council. The pair start with the latest in Ukraine--following up on David’s recent visit there. Then they embark on a whistle stop tour of the Middle East, exploring the latest in Iraq, Syria, Israel, and Lebanon. And… as they Order the Disorder, the discuss the situation in the Gulf, how the Gulfis and European Allies could help open Hormuz, the need to tackle misinformation, and why the Trump admin needs to put aside its destructive unilateralism and work more closely with traditional American allies on Ukraine and the Iran war. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club Watch more on David’s attempts to address misinformation in Ukraine: https://youtube.com/shorts/TWRqQNojKvg?si=dRu81hERC5-HYGNz More on David’s career here: https://www.afslaw.com/attorneys/david-tafuri Plus his reporting from Ukraine’s frontline: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DYX_0c8kTjl/?igsh=eTY2dHh4Zm44eTJp Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 184. How Ryan Cornelius Was Trapped in Dubai Jail With Chris Pagett
Today marks the 18th anniversary of the arrest of Ryan Cornelius, a British businessman stuck in jail on dubious charges over a real estate development project gone awry. And yet… the UK Government is doing nothing substantive to get his release, too scared to pressure a close ally. Does this episode showcase a key aspect of the Enduring Disorder: medium power democracies are too scared to pressure their wealthy allies to abide by the rule of law? Originally sentenced to 10 years for a ‘crime’ -- that the first Emirati judge that saw the case declared was unsubstantiated -- he remains still detained after his initially unproved sentence was extended by a further 20 years. The UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention has found his detention to be arbitrary, and his family has spent years campaigning for the UK and UAE authorities to secure his release. To find out more about this case and what it reveals about international relations, Jason is joined by Chris Pagett, Ryan’s brother-in-law. This is the first in our ever-other Thursday Disorder Latest series. Chris and Jason discuss what the UK Government should (and has so far failed to) do, the ways that automatic sanctions could order the disorder, and why cases like this spread in our era of Enduring Disorder and in turn spread yet further Disorder. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club Read: MPs call for sanctions over British man detained in Dubai for 17 years https://www.irishnews.com/news/uk/mps-call-for-sanctions-over-british-man-detained-in-dubai-for-17-years-HSOY7IGZZRJGNEO5TA3KGFZUYA/ Read: Dubai prisoner: Wife pleads for help to get husband home https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62162686 Read: Families of UK prisoners detained abroad urge ministers to keep promises of help https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jul/16/families-of-uk-prisoners-abroad-urge-ministers-to-keep-promises-to-help Watch Chris in conversation with Iain Duncan Smith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9QXdNGsj_A A brilliant article from a few years back that tells the story in its entirety: https://www.economist.com/1843/2021/12/15/the-dubai-debt-trap Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 183. Trump Visits China, the world order is broken - With Leslie Vinjamuri
This week on Disorder, in a slight break from the Mayhem in the UK over the possible Leadership challenge to Starmer, Jane catches up with the President and CEO of the Chicago Council on Global Affairs and host of the Deep Dish podcast, Leslie Vinjamuri. Leslie and Jane used to work together at Chatham House. They start by discussing Leslie’s final project for Chatham House where she worked with a host of experts to analyse how rising powers, middle powers and US adversaries see the international order as well as new possible ideas of global Order. Surprise, surprise mega-orderers, the conversation proves the depressing result that we already know! -- i.e. that there are no serious alternative visions of order that are emerging and no non-neo-populists are putting forth compressive visions of global order. Will the continuance of the Enduring Disorder therefore be the hallmark of our times? Probably yes :-< On a brighter note, Leslie thinks the US will revert to a more “normal” politics in Trump’s wake. Jane is not so sure: she and Leslie discuss why the UK hasn’t been able to “get back to normal” under Keir Starmer and how the breakdown of the political centre is making it harder and harder to address the long-term economic issues that underpin Britain’s current malaise. This week we also delve into Trump’s trip to China; the role of Europeans in enabling China, and how different camps in Washington are looking at the China trip - with think-tankers pretty skeptical that it will make any difference, while business leaders are eager to join the trip to what is, after all, the world’s second biggest market for most of them. No matter what happens there we must ask is Europe working with or against the US’s China policy? And will any coherent transatlantic order emerge out of a re-alignment over China? To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club Leslie’s podcast, Deep Dish - https://globalaffairs.org/commentary/podcasts/deep-dish-global-affairs-podcast Leslie on Bloomberg about Trump and Xi - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2026-05-11/us-iran-tensions-flare-ahead-of-trump-xi-meeting-video Leslie’s Chatham House project on competing visions of the international order - https://www.chathamhouse.org/2025/03/competing-visions-international-order Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 182. Reform win big in England: are they Disorderers or Orderers? with Alan Mendoza
In the May 7, 2026 UK elections, Reform won biggly. They did so well that they even stole the show from the ascendent Celtic nationalists in the periphery. Gaining thousands of councillors in England, becoming the second largest party in Wales and the joint second biggest in Scotland. Meanwhile, in Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland the biggest parties (Plaid Cymru, SNP, and Sinn Fein) are all separatists. This has ushered in disorderly ‘five party politics’ in England and a real threat to the union emanating from a Celtic periphery led by parties that wish to break up the UK. On this special episode of Disorder we ask: does the UK have a future at all anymore? Will it be very disorderly? And what are Reform’s actual policies? To find out – and in our attempt to present a range of views on Disorder – Jason and Mark are joined by Alan Mendoza, Chief Advisor on Global Affairs to Reform UK. The duo push Alan to clarify Reform’s actual policies around local government, migration, and Reform’s attitudes to Brexit. Jason sees Reform as Disorders, but Alan makes a full throated and quite eloquent case as to why he sees Reform as Orderers rather than Disorderers. Hopefully the debate is podcasting at its best, filled with respectful disagreements that elucidate the underlying differences in world views. Either way, Reform UK is here to stay so we might as well understand them. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club How the winner-takes-all voting system has turned on Labour and the Tories: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxpqyndqwlo How Reform won votes from Swansea to Sunderland https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwy2nz4gwj5o Hear Alan’s previous appearance on Disorder: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/YTk0MzNmZDQtY2JhMS0xMWVmLWJjYTQtOGJjMjMxNmNhZTli Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 181. Corrupted: The entrapment of Former Prince Andrew, with Andrew Lownie
Something smells royally fishy. The stench has been detected wafting from Sandringham all the way to Balmoral. The scandals around Lord Mandelson and former Prince Andrew have showcased that the rich and powerful have been operating beyond the law and that royal sinecures have been used to obscure the provenance of ill-gotten gains. Consider: In America, you make your money. But in Britain, you can use it for access. If the Epstein affair has shown us anything, it’s that a royal seal of approval is infinitely valuable. Friendship with a top working Royal takes one from the shady jet set into the global elite establishment. And if you can buy a royal seal of approval - like Epstein did with former Prince Andrew -- you get the keys to some of the most influential people in the world. To discuss Epstein’s relationship with Prince Andrew, Ghislaine Maxwell and Sarah Ferguson, Jason is joined this week by Andrew Lownie, author of the Sunday Times number 1 Best Selling book, Entitled: The Rise and Fall of the House of York. The pair look at what made Andrew’s personality so easily corruptible, how Andrew’s narcissism and megalomania were fueled, the role of Royal Reputation Washing across the globe, and why there could be more nasty revelations about what the royals have been up yet to come. Plus, as they Order the Disorder, they discuss making the royal family more accountable, transparent, and better at serving the British people. To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey For more on our partnership with the New Books Network visit: https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club Get Andrew’s Book, Entitled: The Rise and Fall of the House of York https://www.amazon.co.uk/Entitled-bestselling-devastating-biography-written/dp/0008775451 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 180. Is the Iran War on or off? Is Hormuz open or closed? Is Orban’s fall the end of neo-populism?
This week’s episode was recorded before the Trump Assassination attempt at the White House Correspondents dinner, but Jason inserted a late breaking addition to reference it at the start. In the regularly scheduled programming, Jane and Jason take a range of listener questions on topics like: Is the Iran War on or off? Does the downfall of Victor Orban mean a turn away from neo-populism and authoritarianism? Are Starmer’s incremental moves towards the EU Mega Ordering or not? Will he be forced out of office on May 8? And will the dynamics of the Iran war and higher oil prices change things between Ukraine and Russia? And what is Israeli ‘hasbarah’=public diplomacy and does it fuel antisemitism? And as they Order the Disorder, the duo experiment with a quick fire round where they discuss: What might actually happen on US-Iran negotiations, Trump’s tanking approval ratings, his constant firing of staff, Virginia Redistricting, and what that means for this year’s Congressional midterms. To tell us more about Disorder win a chance for money, visit disordershow.com/survey Write us to get your question answered at Disordershow@gmail.com Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases, exclusive access to live events AND A GUARENTEE WE ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS, visit disordershow.com/club Watch Jane’s Iran series here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsRO_Izf4VcJkN3vlpbFdTYnx0lpZyPus Listen to Jason on The Bunker discuss Orban’s defeat and its implications for US and EU politics here https://podcasts.apple.com/in/podcast/populism-will-eat-itself-how-orb%C3%A1ns-defeat-changes-the-game/id1496246490?i=1000761547591&l=ml Listen to Jason on BBC Scotland talk about the Assassination attempt on Trump at the WHCA: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002vm42 Watch Jason recapitulate the Disorder Paradigm on a sister show Democrats v Dictators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFJekUfZ6wg Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Ep 179. What is Zionism and is it still relevant today? Israel’s Independence Day with Phil Rosenberg
Over the last week, a spate of Jewish communal targets have been attacked in North London. According to its founder Theodore Herzl, Zionism was supposed to normalize the position of Jews in the world. Has Zionism failed or is a new consensus form of Zionism still the answer to these outbursts of Disorderly Antisemitism? In 2026, April 21 is Israel’s Independence Day. These are tough times for the Jewish State in international public opinion. By all accounts it has made mistakes, violated international law, committed war crimes. But it has also been defending itself against an unprecedented multipronged assault. Other states don’t risk losing their international legitimacy because they have bad or immoral leadership. Support among Americans and Europeans for Israel is down and even young diasporic Jews report increasingly negative appraisals of Israel. To investigate the situation in the Middle East, the position of Jews in Britain, and the rise of anti-semitic attacks on Britain’s Jewish community, I am joined by returning Champion Phil Rosenberg. He is the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews. Phil is a former Labour councilor for West Hampstead and previously Director of the Faiths Forum for London. In today’s episode, we wish to use this commemorative day to look at a few deeper questions: How is Antisemitism surging globally and why? How does Antisemitism manifest itself in the UK and Australia and how it is fascinating how differently it portrays from anti-Americanism? What is Zionism? Is it relevant in today’s world? Is it part of an orderly world or is it a Disordering ideal? What is the Role of international entities and Diasporic Jews in supporting Israel’s right to defend itself while criticizing certain policies? To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club To tell us more about Disorder, visit disordershow.com/survey Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow Show Notes Links: A Partial list of the North London Arson Attacks: https://x.com/philr_r/status/2045605612072132860?s=46&t=cw4unVonh1qJ-YBPzgIl2Q Origen Story on the Meaning of Zionism : https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/zionism-part-1/id1624704966?i=1000618863154 Call Me Back Pod.. Analysts find in the Iran-Israel-America War confirmation of their pre-existing political beliefs: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-continuation-of-war-by-other-means-with-tal-becker/id1539292794?i=1000761725136 Iran directed arson attacks in Australia and ‘fanned the flames’ of antisemitism, country’s spy chief says: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Faustralia-news%2F2025%2Faug%2F26%2Firan-directed-arson-attacks-in-australia-spy-chief-says-ntwnfb&data=05%7C02%7C%7C605a5ea26d9b48554e2408de9d6ca385%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C639121287069184737%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=1wSJ%2BxaXICsYlRBvsu2Rbd4MJ08DRc%2BrqlbAIv%2Fv0HU%3D&reserved=0 The most recent Sunday morning April 19 attack: https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/attempted-arson-attack-at-kenton-united-synagogue-in-northwest-london-pfbikif1 And: https://x.com/philr_r/status/2045782024338768271?s=46&t=cw4unVonh1qJ-YBPzgIl2Q What is the Board of Deputies: https://bod.org.uk/ Phil’s Bio: https://bod.org.uk/who-we-are/phil-rosenberg/ Phil’s Article: https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/were-family-not-critical-friends-rosenberg-sets-out-boards-israel-stance/ History of Israel Independence Day: https://nationaltoday.com/israel-independence-day/ Trump and Tehran’s series of mismanaged posts stall progress towards peace Patrick Wintour https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/apr/18/donald-trump-tehran-war-mismanaged-posts-progress-peace Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
