Rock That Doesn't Roll: The Story of Christian Music
Published by Andrew Gill and Leah Payne
Music
Music History
Rock That Doesn’t Roll looks at how Christian music shaped the world we're living in now by telling individual stories from the peak era of the contemporary Christian music industry. In the 80s, 90s and early 2000s CCM grew into a billion dollar business that affected millions of evangelical young people. Through interviews with artists, industry players and average fans Dr. Leah Payne and Andrew Gill trace the long-lasting personal, cultural and political impact of sometimes cringe-worthy music. Expect hilarious moments and heartfelt yearning, purity culture and conservative politics- all in equal measure. Whether you’ve deconstructed, come out or renegotiated your faith, we hope you feel seen. If you’ve never given Christian music any thought beyond a punchline, we hope you’ll gain a deeper understanding of a subculture that’s shaping the world around us now. Join our Patreon or Buy Us A Coffee . Or buy yourself a coffee from Larry's Coffee and support the show.
Scott Hatch grew up Methodist, but learned about DIY music at his college radio station. When he started his label, Burnt Toast Vinyl, in 1996 he put out bands that had a similar background to him- fellow youth group kids. One of those youth group kids was Randall Stephens. He grew up Nazarene, but was inspired by bands like Pavement and Guided By Voices to start the band Jetenderpaul in the early 1990s. After releasing three albums and a handful of singles for Velvet Blue Music and Burnt Toast Vinyl, Stephens went on to become a respected academic who researches the intersection of Christianity and rock music. His book, The Devil's Music , is essential reading on the topic. This year Burnt Toast Vinyl re-released Jetenderpaul's second album, The Woolen Spires on vinyl for the first time. -- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) If you'd like to make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here. Do you like coffee? Try Larry's Coffee and support the show . The first time you spend $15, we get $30.
Scott Carter is the host of Ye Gods , a podcast and public radio show that explores codes of religious, cultural and secular conduct with notable guests like Martin Short, Killer Mike and Moon Zappa among many others. Scott is an award-winning executive producer and writer, known for his work on Real Time with Bill Maher and Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher. In this interview he shares how his views on religion have shifted over his life, the role music plays in his spiritual practice and shares Hollywood stories about Martin Scorcese, Gary Shandling. Brian Wilson and more. For the month of July Ye Gods is presenting a series called "For God And Country" in honor of America's 250th Birthday. -- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) If you'd like to make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here. Do you like coffee? Try Larry's Coffee and support the show . The first time you spend $15, we get $30.
Chad Matheny is better known by his folk punk band name, Emperor X . His 12th full length album, Unified Field , is out on June 26 and features a single called "Praise Jesus! Hail Reagan!" Much of the album was recorded in Ukraine during the war with Russia. Chad has lived in Berlin, Germany since 2012. Chad also happens to be a friend of Andrew Gill's since they attended public middle school and high school together in Jacksonville, Florida. This episode includes discussion of Chad's megachurch upbringing, his thoughts on the "trad cath" trend, why more leftists need to call themselves Christians and what Andrew was like in high school. Emperor X's playlist of CCM bangers -- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) If you'd like to make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here. Do you like coffee? Try Larry's Coffee and support the show . The first time you spend $15, we get $30.
Jewly Hight is a noted music journalist best known for her work with NPR Music, Nashville Public Radio, The Bitter Southerner and more. She's also a friend of Leah's from their days together in grad school at Vanderbilt Divinity School. In this conversation we talk about how Jewly got into music, her most regrettable tattoo, her feud with the Supertones' singer, clogging, Jelly Roll and so much more. -- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) If you'd like to make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here. Do you like coffee? Try Larry's Coffee and support the show . The first time you spend $15, we get $30.
Flamy Grant may be the world's only Christian drag queen songwriter. She's one of the few queer artists to ever top the Christian music category in the iTunes Store. She's also a guest we've wanted to have on the show since before season one launched. We get an update on whether Flamy and Amy Grant have met yet, manifest a few dreams and get to the heart of what keeps Flamy performing in churches. Also, we consider the possibility of approaching drag as a folk art form. Flamy also answers questions posed by members of our Patreon community. -- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) If you'd like to make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here. Do you like coffee? Try Larry's Coffee and support the show . The first time you spend $15, we get $30.
Nina Hagen is a true legend. She's considered an icon of German culture. And she's known as "the Godmother of German Punk." But our interview with her revealed that she also should be considered a longtime Jesus Freak. Her latest album, "Highway To Heaven" was released earlier in 2026. -- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) If you'd like to make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here. Do you like coffee? Try Larry's Coffee and support the show . The first time you spend $15, we get $30.
Tim Dillinger returns to the podcast to continue our examination of 1985 as a pivotal year in Christian music. This time his focus is on artists who tried to break into the Christian industry, including Donna Summer and Maria Muldaur. He also discusses Lone Justice, Mr Mister, Steve Arrington and Tremaine Hawkins. He also reflects on how the industry in 2026 compares to what was happening in 1985. For more on all of these artists, subscribe to Tim's Substack: God's Music Is My Life . --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here. Do you like coffee? Try Larry's Coffee and support the show .
Rosie Thomas is a singer-songwriter who came up alongside artists like Damien Jurado, Pedro The Lion and Sufjan Stevens. She was one of the first folk artists signed to Sub Pop Records and had a long-running comedic alter ego named Sheila Saputo. Her most recent music project is Lullabies For Parents . In this interview she talks about her experience as a child performing in musicals, joining Velour100, working at a daycare with Damien Jurado, signing to Sub Pop, performing at Lilith Fair in 2010, breaking through Sufjan Stevens' defenses and acting alongside Steve Zahn. --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
In the late 1990's Andrew Osenga's high school band caught the ear of a member of Whiteheart. That led Osenga to Nashville and his band, The Normals, releasing three albums on ForeFront Records. In the decades since The Normals disbanded, Osenga has toured as a member of Caedmon's Call, worked as a music executive, written the book How To Remember and created the podcast, The Pivot, to just scratch the surface of his CV . In this conversation we talk about how touring with The Normals exposed Osenga to a wider variety of Christian religious traditions than his small "cornfield church" did. He also talks about how the current worship industry commercialization has led to a shallow understanding of Christian faith. --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
Jeremy Alder is a comedian who mines his life as a homeschooled youth group kid growing up in Texas for jokes that will probably be very relatable for our audience. We talk with Jeremy about his special, Purity Pants , his album, Almost A Grown Man , and his failed Christian rock band, Nineveh (or 9veh if Jeremy had his way). Jeremy also is a seminary graduate, a former preacher and creator of the series "Christians Who Don't Suck" on his Instagram. --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Want to contribute to our Christmas Special? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
Sam Sanders is the host of The Sam Sanders Show from KCRW. He was a founding host of The NPR Politics Podcast and It's Been A Minute from NPR. Sam grew up in the Black Pentecostal church in Texas, where he played saxophone in the church band. Eventually he would sneak riffs from D'Angelo's Voodoo album into improvised sections of church services. In 2025 The Sam Sanders Show won the Signal Award for Best Spirituality Show. --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Want to contribute to our Christmas Special? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
Rock That Doesn't Roll is coming back with Season 4 launching on March 4th. We'll be publishing every other week after that. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack if you like sporadic email updates. Buy RTDR merch here.
This episode is a feed drop from Transmissions with Jason Woodbury from Aquarium Drunkard . Here's their original show notes: This week, we have an exceedingly rare interview with Jason Martin, of California dream pop band Starflyer 59. Fermented in the nascent Riverside dream pop underground alongside his brother Ronnie Martin of Joy Electric in the early '90s, Martin's band SF59 released its debut album, Silver , 30 years ago in 1994 on the fledgling Tooth & Nail label. His latest, Lust for Gold , finds him winking knowingly at the title of his 1995 album Gold , a record routinely cited as one of the best shoegaze albums of all-time. Incorporating elements of the band’s feedback-drenched early sound, the new album finds the years catching up with a guy who has been singing about being old since he was in his early 20s. From the band’s monochromatic album covers to Martin’s notoriously sparse interviews—check out the one we did at Aquarium Drunkard for an example—he’s always preferred to let the music do the talking. But this talk finds him settling in for a longform chat about his history, his songwriting practice, how familial connections bind his musical projects, and much, much more. Joined by guest co-host/interlocuteur Andrew Horton, this conversation is the most revealing interview to date with Jason Martin of Starflyer 59. --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack where I recently reviewed each episode in Season 3. Buy RTDR merch here.
Introducing The Sam Sanders Show from KCRW This episode is a perfect fit for Rock That Doesn't Roll. Big Freedia is best known as the Queen of Bounce, but her new album Pressing Onward showcases her gospel choir roots. She tells Sam about growing up as a young gay church kid in New Orleans, what moved her to make a gospel album, and how twerking and praising God go hand in hand. Plus, she breaks down her iconic feature on Beyoncé’s 2016 hit single “Formation.” Follow Sam Sanders on Instagram . --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack where I recently reviewed each episode in Season 3. Buy RTDR merch here.
It's our third annual Christmas special! Leah and Andrew are joined by returning guests Kelsey Kramer McGinnis and Daniel Gill . Everyone brought a Christmas song or two to celebrate and we even hear some picks from listeners. We've survived 2025. That's reason to celebrate. Daniel's 23 hour Christmas Playlist . Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr You can always make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
Co-host and producer Andrew Gill's day job is with Sound Opinions. He recently interviewed John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats, so we're doing a feed drop here of that episode. To share a song pick for the Rock That Doesn't Roll Christmas Special, call (629) 204-4264 and leave a message. To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr -- John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats discusses his new book, "This Year: 365 Songs Annotated: A Book of Days" and his new album "Through This Fire Across From Peter Balkan" with Sound Opinions producer Andrew Gill. Find out more about Sound Opinions at Soundopinions.org
Please enjoy this episode from a podcast we love: When We All Get To Heaven . To share a song pick for the Rock That Doesn't Roll Christmas Special, call (629) 204-4264 and leave a message. To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr ---- In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they’ve lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church’s services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you’re a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1 . About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named. When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits . This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation ( www.hluce.org ), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities ( www.CalHum.org ). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds . The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels. Thanks to Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid . The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story .
In our season three finale, we tell the full story of Steve Scott 's lost records that Larry Norman produced in 1978, but never released. Moving Pictures (and its companion Close Ups ) were victims of short-sighted Christian music industry executives and a myriad of bad circumstances after being recorded and they have lived in lore among frustrated record collectors for decades. Now they are close to finally being released. As Larry Norman was dying in 2008 he made a last request of his brother, who goes by Charles Normal, to ensure that the Steve Scott records be released someday. Charles has digitized the original tracks and mixed them for the first time and now he and Steve are raising money on Kickstarter to give the albums a proper release. Steve and Charles join us today to tell the full story and play some of the never-before-published songs. The Steve Scott Kickstarter --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Want to contribute to our Christmas Special? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
Todd Fadel is our guest this week. He is an individual whose life experiences defy easy categorization. He was the lead singer of a Star Wars -themed side project to Tooth and Nail grunge band Sometime Sunday. He was a worship leader at a non-traditional church in Portland, Oregon. He helped run TOMFest. He's also a big fan of Evie. Most of our conversation in this episode is about his work running Meow Meow, an all-ages venue in Portland that straddled the Christian and secular music worlds in the early 2000s. Adam Voith's novel in progress that is mentioned in this episode. The film adaptation of Don Miller's best-selling book, Blue Like Jazz , is mentioned in this episode. It was directed by the legendary Steve Taylor. --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here.
David Dark is a life-long Nashvillian and an admitted member of what he calls "The Prayer Trade" as a professor of religion and the arts at Belmont University. In 2002 he published his first book, "Everyday Apocalypse: The Sacred Revealed in Radiohead, The Simpsons, and Other Pop Culture Icons." At the time he was involved in The Art House along with Leah and Charlie Peacock. Now David has reissued the book as " Everyday Apocalypse: Art, Empire, and the End of the World " or if you're a Swiftie "Everyday Apocalypse (David's Version)." Hosts Andrew Gill and Leah Payne welcome David back to the show to discuss both editions of the book, his relationships with musicians inside and outside the Christian music industry and his depiction in the book "Body Piercing Saved My Life." --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 204-4264. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon . https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation : https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments . Buy RTDR merch here. -- PROMO SWAP: "When We Were on Fire" is a full-cast audio drama podcast based on the faith deconstruction memoir by Addie Zierman . Created by Lizzie Goldsmith , the podcast stars Aria Sivick as Addie, and features original music by Frank Sheffield .
Producer's note
Steal the structure. Not the show.
Keep the useful structure, then change the audience, point of view, and voice until the idea is unmistakably yours.
