Life After Ministry

Most ministry leaders expect to decide when they step away. Dennis Atwood never had that opportunity. After serving churches for nearly three decades, Dennis was diagnosed with early-onset Parkinson's disease. He quietly carried the diagnosis for years before the progression of the disease forced him to step away from the pastorate he loved. In this deeply honest conversation, Dennis reflects on grief, identity, suffering, and why choosing gratitude isn't about denying pain but discovering God's faithfulness in the middle of it. Key Takeaways Unexpected health challenges can reshape both ministry and identity. Grief is a natural part of leaving a calling you deeply love. Gratitude isn't the absence of suffering but a response to God's faithfulness within it. Ministry leaders need purpose beyond the title they hold. God often brings deep spiritual formation through seasons we would never choose. Chapter Markers 00:00 Dennis' pastoral journey and ministry background 01:45 An early Parkinson's diagnosis changes everything 03:30 Why Dennis kept his diagnosis private for years 07:45 Telling the church and preparing for transition 11:00 Missing ministry more than expected 13:15 Becoming a caregiver and navigating family transition 14:30 Holy discontent and living with purpose 16:20 Choosing gratitude through suffering 20:00 The dark night of the soul and spiritual formation 25:30 Encouragement for leaders whose ministry ended unexpectedly If you're facing a ministry transition or unexpected life change, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions . Learn more about Dennis and his book Choosing Gratitude at Market Square Books.

Missionaries spend years preparing to go to the field, but few are prepared for what it feels like to come home. After serving six years in Germany, Nate and Brittany Bruns share the unexpected challenges of returning to the United States, navigating reverse culture shock, raising third-culture kids, and rebuilding community. Ultimately, they discovered God was calling them to live as missionaries in their own country. Their story offers practical encouragement for missionaries, churches, and anyone walking through an unexpected ministry transition. Key Takeaways Reverse culture shock can be more difficult than moving overseas. Missionary transitions affect spouses, children, and the entire family. God often prepares leaders for future seasons long before they understand why. Returning missionaries bring valuable wisdom that can strengthen the local church. Waiting on God is an active posture of trust, not passive inactivity. Chapter Markers 00:00 Job loss, the desert season, and God's unexpected call to Germany 04:30 Reaching a post-Christian culture through relationships 07:15 When God said it was time to come home 11:15 Reverse culture shock and becoming strangers in your own country 16:00 Helping third-culture kids navigate transition 20:15 How churches can better care for returning missionaries 23:30 What America can learn from post-Christian Europe 26:45 Financial transitions and rebuilding support 30:00 Waiting on God and discerning what's next 34:00 The Bruns Tribe and engaging the spiritually disengaged 36:30 Encouragement for missionaries in transition If you're navigating a ministry transition, we'd love to help. Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions . Learn more about Nate and Brittany's ministry at The Bruns Tribe .

Few ministry leaders expect the end of their pastoral chapter to unfold differently than they imagined. Yet for many, transition arrives carrying both grief and unexpected opportunity. In this honest conversation, Scott Sauls reflects on stepping away after more than 30 years of pastoral ministry, processing the loss of a role he loved, recovering from work addiction, and discovering a new calling shepherding high-capacity leaders. Along the way, he offers wisdom about identity, friendship, reconciliation, and trusting God when the future feels uncertain. Key Takeaways Ministry transitions often bring grief and relief at the same time. Work addiction can quietly shape a leader's identity and relationships. Healthy transitions begin with embracing who you are apart from your role. Every leader needs authentic friendships, not just professional relationships. The gospel calls us to love across differences, especially when it's difficult. Chapter Markers 00:00 Scott's ministry journey and pastoral background 02:20 An unexpected transition from pastoral ministry 05:00 Grief, relief, and leaving a church you love 07:00 Confronting work addiction through recovery 09:30 Is Scott still a pastor? 11:00 The birth of the Sycamore Community 16:30 Shepherding leaders outside the local church 18:30 The impact of ministry transitions on spouses and families 21:00 Loving across the lines of difference 27:00 The Mercy King and God's relentless love If you're navigating a ministry transition, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions . Learn more about Scott's work at Scott Sauls .

Founder transitions are some of the most difficult moments in ministry leadership, but they don't have to end poorly. After leading the church he planted for 27 years, Keith Spurgin shares the lessons he learned about succession, feedback, sabbaticals, and letting go with confidence. He also reflects on the leadership mistakes he nearly made during COVID and how stepping away for a year ultimately prepared both him and his church for a healthy transition. Key Takeaways Healthy succession planning begins years before the transition. Founder transitions often succeed when leadership is shared rather than concentrated in one successor. Sabbaticals create space for leaders to rediscover who they are apart from their role. Feedback reveals blind spots that leaders cannot see on their own. Legacy is built by preparing others to succeed after you're gone. Chapter Markers 00:00 Introduction and Keith's ministry journey 00:45 Nearly derailing a succession plan during COVID 01:45 Why handing leadership to a team changed everything 06:45 Building trust before succession 07:45 Why Keith stayed away for six months after stepping down 09:00 Lessons from an unexpected year-long sabbatical 15:20 Why every leader needs honest feedback 18:15 Processing life after ministry 24:00 The Growth Resourcing Group 26:00 Unknown: Finding Connection in a Disconnected World 27:30 Why Keith's next book is about finishing well Preparing for a leadership transition? Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions . Learn more about Keith's leadership resources at Keith Spurgin .

Many leaders secretly believe their value comes from what they do. But what happens when the title disappears, the ministry ends, or life takes a turn you never expected? In this deeply personal conversation, Steve Cummings shares his journey through ministry leadership, addiction recovery, job loss, financial uncertainty, and ultimately discovering a deeper identity as a beloved son of God. From sitting in rehab at age 55 to working at Home Depot and eventually launching Bringing Kingdom, Steve offers hope for anyone learning to trust God in a season they never planned for. Key Takeaways Your identity is not determined by your title, income, or position. Hidden struggles become more dangerous when they remain isolated. Recovery begins when honesty replaces shame. God often uses seasons of transition to reveal deeper truths about who we are. Ministry is not confined to a church building or nonprofit organization. Chapter Markers 00:00 Friendship, ministry history, and Steve's background 01:30 Seminary, missed opportunities, and unexpected career turns 03:45 Building a career in nonprofit ministry 06:00 Hidden struggles, addiction, and personal collapse 08:00 Rehab, recovery, and discovering the deeper issues 11:00 Losing a ministry position and starting over 12:30 Working at Home Depot and confronting identity 16:00 Launching Bringing Kingdom 21:30 The Father Eclipse and understanding father wounds 28:00 Helping men discover their identity 31:30 Financial uncertainty, faith, and trusting God's provision 40:30 Is there life after ministry? If you're navigating a leadership transition or difficult season, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions . Learn more about Steve's ministry at Bringing Kingdom .

Most leaders know succession planning matters. Far fewer know how to start the conversation. In this episode, Gary Blackard, President and CEO of Adult & Teen Challenge USA, shares lessons from leading a national ministry, navigating leadership transitions, and helping people find hope in the midst of life's most difficult challenges. From succession planning and organizational stewardship to addiction recovery and spiritual formation, Gary offers practical wisdom for leaders who want their influence to outlast their tenure. Key Takeaways Succession planning is an act of stewardship, not a signal that leadership is ending. Leaders often avoid succession conversations because of fear, identity, or lack of self-awareness. Hope is a critical ingredient in personal transformation and lasting change. Healthy leadership begins with a strong private relationship with God. Legacy is protected when leaders intentionally prepare others to carry the mission forward. Chapter Markers 00:00 Introduction and Gary's leadership journey 01:30 Transitioning into Adult & Teen Challenge leadership 04:20 The history and mission of Adult & Teen Challenge 09:40 Ministry leaders, addiction, and the importance of the private altar 12:00 Spiritual disciplines that sustain healthy leadership 15:20 Why hope matters during seasons of change 18:30 Facing the succession elephant 21:30 Why leaders avoid succession planning 27:00 Building a lasting leadership legacy 33:40 The Hope Within Reach podcast and helping families navigate addiction 37:00 Final thoughts and encouragement Navigating a leadership transition or preparing for succession? Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions . Listen to Hope Within Reach and learn more about Adult & Teen Challenge at Adult & Teen Challenge USA

Success in ministry can hide struggles that few people ever see. While Will Acuff was helping build a nonprofit that would eventually launch thousands of entrepreneurs and transform communities, his family was walking through years of exhaustion, medical challenges, and uncertainty. The contrast forced him to confront a difficult question: what happens when the strategies that helped you succeed no longer work? In this conversation, Will shares the lessons he learned through leadership succession, personal suffering, and the unexpected journey that led him to write No Elevator to Everest. For leaders facing transition, burnout, or uncertainty, this episode offers a hopeful vision for finding joy that is not dependent on circumstances. Key Takeaways Succession works best when leadership development starts long before the transition. Healthy transitions require trust, coaching, and ongoing support after the handoff. High-capacity leaders often struggle to acknowledge their own pain and limitations. Joy is cultivated through intentional practices, not favorable circumstances. Faithful leadership requires both knowledge of God and honest knowledge of ourselves. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and Will's ministry background 03:45 Launching Corner to Corner and helping entrepreneurs escape poverty 07:50 Why the Church should lead community transformation 11:10 Succession planning and transitioning leadership as a founder 19:55 Parenting through complex disabilities and chronic hardship 24:00 Creating a "joy lab" in the middle of suffering 29:00 The story behind No Elevator to Everest 31:00 Advice for burned-out ministry leaders 35:00 Finding joy in the middle of hard 35:40 Resources, book, and final encouragement If you're navigating a ministry transition or leadership challenge, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions . Learn more about Will's work at Corner to Corner and his book at No Elevator to Everest .

Leaving ministry is rarely a simple decision. For many pastors, it comes after years of carrying responsibility, managing expectations, and trying to care for everyone around them while quietly neglecting themselves and their families. In this episode, Shawn Gwaltney shares the story of how ministry slowly became unsustainable, what pushed him toward transition, and how he eventually rediscovered purpose through business, mentorship, and helping others find clarity. This conversation offers hope for leaders wrestling with burnout, identity loss, and the fear of what comes next after ministry. Key Takeaways Ministry burnout often grows slowly through constant emotional pressure and unclear boundaries Many pastors already possess leadership and relational skills that transfer well into the marketplace Identity can become deeply tied to the title of “pastor,” making transition emotionally difficult Healthy leadership in business still requires empathy, discipleship, and genuine care for people Clarity is often the first step toward healing and rebuilding after ministry transition Chapter Markers 00:00 – Shawn’s return to church and entry into ministry 03:20 – The pressures that pushed ministry toward burnout 07:20 – Choosing family over vocational ministry 10:20 – Systems pastors wish they had built sooner 11:20 – Transferable leadership skills pastors already have 16:00 – Wrestling with identity after leaving ministry 18:30 – Faith, wealth, and business ownership 23:00 – Helping pastors find clarity after transition 26:00 – Meaning, purpose, and life after success 28:20 – Shawn’s mission to help others grow If you’re navigating a ministry transition, start a conversation with the team at Ministry Transitions . And to connect with Shawn Gwaltney and learn more about his mentorship and business resources, visit Shawn Gwaltney .

The Church is carrying more tension than many leaders know how to navigate. Political polarization, fractured trust, rising anxiety, and unrealistic expectations on pastors are reshaping congregations across the country. In this conversation, Dr. Andrew Hale shares why he believes the Church is not collapsing but entering a moment of reformation. Together, we explore how ministry leaders can stop treating non-essential issues as ultimate ones, rebuild authentic community, and lead congregations toward healthier relationships rooted in Christ instead of cultural division. Key Takeaways Conflict in the Church is not new, but today’s divisions are being amplified by politics and cultural anxiety. Many churches have elevated non-essential issues above the central mission of Jesus. Ministry leaders are carrying unrealistic expectations while trust in institutions continues to decline. Healthy churches create space for diverse perspectives and authentic relationships. This cultural moment may be less about the collapse of the Church and more about a needed reformation. Chapter Markers 00:00 — Andrew Hale’s ministry background and love for the Church 03:00 — Why churches are becoming more divided 07:42 — Organizational psychology and understanding conflict 09:16 — Essential vs. non-essential issues in the Church 16:18 — Declining trust in institutions and ministry burnout 19:12 — Have we placed too much pressure on pastors? 23:19 — Why this moment may be reformation, not collapse 27:24 — Political idolatry and the future of the Church 30:57 — Where to find Dr. Andrew Hale and his book If this conversation resonated with you, we’d encourage you to take the next step. Whether you’re navigating conflict, leadership transition, succession planning, or simply trying to lead your church through a complicated season with wisdom and clarity, the team at Ministry Transitions is here to help. You can also learn more from Dr. Andrew Hale’s work on church health, division, and renewal at AndrewRHale.com and explore his book Mending the Fracturing Church wherever books are sold.

Leadership transitions often expose something many leaders spend years trying to hide: the fear that they are not enough for the role they carry. Whether it is a pastor navigating succession, a nonprofit executive facing organizational change, or a CEO realizing old leadership methods no longer work, the pressure to appear confident and certain can quietly isolate leaders from the people they serve. In this conversation, Jim Brown shares why healthy leadership begins when leaders stop trying to be the hero of the organization and start building collaborative cultures where people feel valued, empowered, and trusted. Together, we explore the emotional realities underneath leadership transitions, difficult staffing decisions, and organizational change. They discuss why so many leaders stay too long, how fear often disguises itself as faithfulness, and why humility and vulnerability are becoming essential leadership qualities in today’s world. The conversation offers practical wisdom for ministry leaders who want to navigate transition seasons with greater clarity, courage, and care. Key Takeaways Healthy leadership creates space for others to contribute instead of positioning the leader as the hero. Vulnerability from leaders gives teams permission to be honest, collaborative, and engaged. Most organizational problems are people and culture problems before they become strategy problems. Transition conversations are rarely perfect, but avoiding them often causes greater harm. Fear keeps many leaders in roles long after their season has changed. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and introducing Jim Brown 01:40 Why leadership perfection is impossible 04:00 How leadership expectations have changed 06:50 Why today’s leaders need humility and flexibility 08:30 Building collaborative cultures that empower people 12:30 Vulnerability, mistakes, and healthier leadership 13:40 The framework behind The Imperfect CEO 19:30 Helping leaders overcome imposter syndrome 20:50 Why transitions are never perfectly executed 24:00 Difficult staffing conversations and leadership courage 26:40 Why some ministry leaders stay too long 28:00 Resources for churches and healthy leadership Resources & Links Start a conversation with the Ministry Transitions team: https://ministrytransitions.com Explore free leadership transition resources: https://ministrytransitions.com/resources The Imperfect CEO – Jim Brown’s upcoming book releasing May 19: Order your copy immediately at https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/1637749023 For the best deals, order bulk at https://imperfectceobook.com/ Connect with Jim Brown: LinkedIn: @authorjimbrown Instagram: @orghealthteam Facebook: OrgHealth

Church transitions often expose what has been neglected for years. In this conversation, longtime pastor Wayne Hoag reflects on the painful lessons he learned after leaving one church unprepared for his departure and how that experience shaped a completely different approach to succession later in ministry. Together, we explore what healthy pastoral transitions require: humility, long-term preparation, deep love for the church, and the willingness to release control before crisis forces the issue. The conversation also digs into the spiritual side of leadership transition. Wayne shares how unity and love inside the body of Christ become especially important during seasons of change and why churches that avoid difficult conversations often create deeper wounds later. Key Takeaways Healthy pastoral succession starts years before the actual transition. Churches often avoid transition conversations until crisis forces them. A pastor must gradually release responsibility if the next leader is going to succeed. Unity in the church is built around Christ, not personalities or preferences. Ministry purpose does not end when a pastor steps away from the pulpit. Chapter Markers 00:00 - Wayne’s painful lesson from leaving a church unprepared 03:34 - Building a long-term succession plan 05:45 - Identifying and mentoring the next pastor 07:53 - The temptation to hold onto control 09:52 - How the church stayed unified during transition 15:13 - The heart behind The One Another Project 17:43 - Why churches struggle with unity and love 19:49 - Why pastoral transitions create vulnerability 23:48 - What healthy transitions require from leaders 25:33 - Discovering purpose after pastoral ministry 30:36 - Why churches cannot afford to ignore succession planning Start a conversation with the team at Ministry Transitions to learn more about healthy pastoral succession, church leadership transition planning, and life after ministry at ministrytransitions.com . You can also connect with Wayne Hoag and explore The One Another Project, his book, blog, and ministry resources at oneanotheronline.org . Whether you are preparing proactively for a transition or navigating one right now, both ministries exist to help churches pursue healthy leadership handoffs rooted in unity, wisdom, and care for the body of Christ.

Leadership transitions often don’t fail in the moment they happen. They begin to unravel long before that. In unclear expectations, undefined roles, and decisions made without discernment. This episode explores how fear, lack of clarity, and misaligned leadership structures quietly shape outcomes. It offers a clearer path forward for leaders and boards navigating change. Key Takeaways Fear of mistakes can stall leadership more than mistakes themselves Decision-making and spiritual discernment are not the same skill Most ministry breakdowns begin with unclear expectations around results Boards often drift into staff roles when responsibilities aren’t defined Healthy transitions require humility, clarity, and shared understanding Chapter Markers 00:00 — Introduction and John’s leadership background 02:30 — How ministry has changed over time 06:30 — Fear, mistakes, and leadership growth 10:50 — The danger of unclear expectations in leadership 16:50 — Board roles vs. staff roles explained 19:50 — What leaders often get wrong in transitions 28:00 — Why board training is so difficult to scale 32:50 — A defining moment of spiritual discernment 39:00 — Recommended books and final thoughts If this conversation surfaced something in your own leadership or board dynamics, don’t leave it there. Start a conversation with us at https://ministrytransitions.com . Whether you’re in the middle of a transition or trying to prepare for one, having the right guide can bring clarity to what feels uncertain. And if you want to go deeper into the ideas John shared around leadership, governance, and learning from mistakes, you can explore his work at https://managementbuckets.com . His insights are practical, seasoned, and grounded in decades of real ministry experience. You don’t have to figure this out alone. Start the conversation.

Succession is one of the most important moments in the life of a ministry. And one of the most misunderstood. After decades working with leading Christian organizations, Steve Woodworth has watched leadership transitions unfold from behind the scenes. Some created momentum and clarity. Others quietly eroded trust, fractured relationships, and stalled mission. What makes the difference? In this episode, Steve shares the patterns he’s seen across hundreds of organizations, why internal succession is often more effective, and how boards and leaders can work together to create a “no drama” transition. This conversation is both practical and deeply human, addressing not just strategy but identity, trust, and the emotional reality leaders face as they step out of their roles. Key Takeaways The healthiest successions begin years before the actual transition • Internal candidates have a significantly higher success rate than external hires • Culture fit is one of the biggest predictors of success or failure • Boards often underestimate their need for outside help • Mistreating outgoing leaders can damage donor trust and organizational stability • Leaders must plan not just what they are leaving, but what they are going toward • Humility and collaboration are essential for a “no drama” succession Chapter Markers 00:00 — Introduction to Steve Woodworth 01:36 — Why he wrote Lost in Transition 05:00 — Patterns in healthy vs unhealthy successions 07:15 — Why culture fit matters so much 09:23 — Internal vs external successors 12:43 — What happens when you don’t prepare 16:03 — The emotional weight of stepping down 17:58 — Mistreating outgoing leaders 20:56 — What leaders need to hear before retiring 23:10 — Transitioning into what’s next 26:27 — The challenge of founder succession 31:07 — Gone too soon vs stayed too long 35:12 — The critical role of boards 39:56 — What’s changing in succession today If you’re navigating a leadership transition or want to prepare your organization before challenges arise, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to learn how Ministry Transitions helps leaders and boards plan wisely and finish strong. You can also connect with Steve Woodworth’s insights through his book Lost in Transition and his work at https://masterworks.agency or on LinkedIn, where he shares ongoing wisdom for leaders facing succession decisions. These resources exist to help you steward both the ending and the next beginning with clarity and care.

Leadership often looks clear in hindsight, but confusing in the moment. For Tami Heim, the journey into leadership began with a dramatic shift in ambition. Just days after graduating college, she surrendered her plans to follow Christ, stepping into a life where leadership was no longer about advancement but obedience. Over the next several decades, that calling would lead her through massive corporate change, cultural disruption, and deeply personal trials. From navigating retail mergers during the rise of Amazon to leading during national crises and personal loss, each moment shaped how she understands faith, leadership, and God’s faithfulness. Today, as president and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance, Tami helps equip leaders across more than 125 countries. In this conversation, she shares how leaders can seek God in uncertainty, navigate disruption, and lead with both competence and spiritual depth. This episode is an invitation to rediscover leadership as an adventure with God rather than a platform to control. Key Takeaways Leadership growth often comes through disruption and difficulty, not comfort God’s faithfulness becomes clearer after walking through multiple seasons of crisis Spiritual formation is just as critical as leadership competency Healthy leadership requires wise guides, side guides, and gospel community Seeking God together as a team can transform how organizations navigate uncertainty Identity must remain rooted in Christ rather than in leadership roles Strong leadership transitions require trust in God’s timing and openness to what comes next Chapter Markers 00:00 — Introduction to Tami Heim 02:08 — Management, stewardship, and leadership 04:42 — Being saved from personal ambition 07:06 — Business as ministry before it was common 09:57 — The role of Christian community in leadership 12:09 — Leading through crisis and disruption 14:19 — Navigating 9/11 and national uncertainty 16:44 — When COVID threatened the future of CLA 18:45 — Leadership during seasons of transition 20:21 — Seeking God first as an organization 23:10 — Identity beyond leadership roles 26:25 — Multiply, not divide 30:55 — The ache of ministry leaders 33:44 — What makes the Outcomes Conference unique 37:31 — Leadership, presence, and meaningful conversations 40:02 — Final invitation to Outcomes Conference If you or your organization are facing a leadership transition, succession conversation, or difficult ministry change, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to learn how Ministry Transitions helps churches and nonprofits protect people, preserve mission, and plan what comes next. You can also explore more about the Christian Leadership Alliance and the Outcomes Conference at https://outcomesconference.org . These resources exist to help leaders finish strong and step confidently into whatever God has next. Thanks for listening to the Life After Ministry podcast.

There’s a kind of grief that doesn’t come with a clear loss. No funeral. No ending. Just the quiet ache of something that never came to be. For many in ministry, this kind of grief goes unnamed and unaddressed. Drew Hensley calls it “invisible grief.” It’s the pain of unrealized hopes, whether that’s infertility, singleness, unmet expectations, or a future you were certain God was leading you toward. And because it’s unseen, it often gets buried under responsibility, performance, and the pressure to keep showing up. In this conversation, Drew shares his personal journey through infertility while pastoring, the unhealthy ways he coped, and the turning point that led him toward honesty, lament, and healing. This episode offers a grounded, honest look at how to carry grief without losing your faith. Key Takeaways Invisible grief is the pain of what has never been and may never be Ministry leaders often carry grief privately while serving others publicly Avoiding grief doesn’t silence it. It reshapes how it shows up Lament is a necessary spiritual practice, not a lack of faith Joy and grief are not opposites. They can coexist Healing begins with honesty, first with God, then with others The church grows stronger when it learns to sit with people in unresolved pain Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction to Invisible Grief 02:00 – Defining grief that no one sees 05:00 – Drew’s infertility story begins 08:30 – The weight of grief in ministry leadership 12:00 – Coping, numbing, and emotional exhaustion 17:30 – The turning point: honesty with God 20:30 – Why joy and grief are not opposites 26:30 – A framework: lay down, pick up, move forward 30:00 – Adoption, redemption, and unresolved tension 33:00 – Is the church good at grief? 37:00 – Final reflections on trust and faith If you’re navigating a difficult transition, you don’t have to do it alone. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call, support leaders in transition, or find guidance for what’s next. You can explore Drew Hensley’s book Invisible Grief wherever books are sold. Take the next step toward honest healing and wise transition today.

Many ministry leaders begin their journey with a genuine desire to serve. But somewhere along the way, leadership can quietly become something else. Platforms grow. Expectations rise. Applause becomes affirmation. And before long, influence begins to shape identity. Eric Reid spent years traveling the world teaching leadership alongside John Maxwell. From the outside, it looked like success. But internally, Eric began to notice a troubling pattern. Leadership had become a performance, a way to earn approval rather than simply serve people. In this conversation with Matt Davis, Eric reflects on the personal awakening that led him to write Leadership Was Never My Calling. Together they unpack the deep tensions many leaders carry: the pull toward platform, the pressure to perform, and the quiet invitation of Jesus to step down the ladder and serve with humility. Key Takeaways Leadership can easily become a hiding place for insecurity and identity wounds • Applause and affirmation can become addictive forms of validation • Performance and presence are very different ways of leading • Many leaders carry unresolved father wounds that shape how they pursue influence • Small, unseen acts of faithfulness often carry the greatest kingdom impact • True Christlike leadership begins at the bottom of the ladder, not the top • Freedom comes when leaders shift from building influence to serving people Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introducing Eric Reid and the question of calling 02:00 – The origin of the book Leadership Was Never My Calling 05:20 – Performance versus presence in ministry leadership 08:30 – The addiction to applause and approval 11:20 – Father wounds and identity in leadership 16:00 – Navigating significance while remaining faithful 19:50 – The power of small, unseen acts of service 23:20 – Surrendering career outcomes to God 26:40 – When leaders feel their best years are behind them 28:30 – Why stepping down the ladder leads to freedom Learn More If you’re navigating a ministry transition or wrestling with what comes next, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to explore confidential coaching and support. You can also learn more about Eric Reid and his upcoming book at https://lwnc.net .

What happens when a pastor steps away after decades of leading a church? Many leaders imagine retirement will bring peace and freedom. But for pastors, the transition often carries unexpected weight. The loss of identity, the quiet grief of leaving a community, and the challenge of rediscovering purpose can make the next season far more complicated than anticipated. After serving the same church for 35 years, Doug Bullock faced this reality firsthand. What began as a thoughtful transition into retirement turned into a deeper journey through loss, identity, and calling. In the process, he discovered that many pastors are unprepared for the emotional and spiritual questions that follow the end of pastoral leadership. In this conversation, Doug shares what surprised him most after stepping away from ministry and why retiring pastors still have a crucial role in strengthening the church. Together they explore how pastors can process loss, redeem past pain, and find renewed purpose beyond the pulpit. Key Takeaways Retirement from ministry often includes unexpected grief and identity loss • Many pastors are unprepared for the emotional impact of stepping away • Feelings of obscurity after decades of leadership can be surprisingly difficult • Retired pastors still carry valuable wisdom that can benefit younger leaders • Churches rarely have a clear vision for how retired pastors can remain involved • Processing pain and past failures is essential for healthy transition • Flourishing after ministry means continuing to walk with Christ and serve faithfully in new ways Chapter Markers 00:00 – Meeting Doug Bullock and his book New Dawn 01:05 – Recognizing when it was time to step away from pastoral leadership 03:59 – Transitioning out of ministry and returning to school 06:00 – Discovering the deeper questions of pastoral retirement 08:07 – The emotional struggles pastors face after stepping down 11:03 – The experience of becoming unknown after years of leadership 13:41 – The key questions pastors must wrestle with in retirement 23:26 – Why many retired pastors struggle attending church 28:13 – The tension between older and younger pastoral generations 32:28 – The coming wave of pastoral retirements 34:03 – What it means to truly flourish in retirement 36:04 – Advice for pastors preparing to step away from ministry 38:37 – Redeeming past pain and helping the next generation If you’re navigating a ministry transition or preparing for what comes next, visit ministrytransitions.com to find guidance, resources, or schedule a confidential conversation. You can also explore Doug Bullock’s book New Dawn: Helping Pastors Flourish in Retirement on Amazon or connect with him directly at DTS844@gmail.com.

What happens when the calling that once defined you no longer feels sustainable? When the work you love begins to cost you more than you can carry? For many ministry leaders, the hardest battles are not theological. They are personal. Emotional. Quiet. And often fought alone. In this episode, Matt Davis sits down with Don Ross, former pastor and founder of Manhood Tribes, to talk about why so many men struggle in silence, especially during seasons of ministry transition. After two decades in large evangelical church leadership, Don stepped away - not because he stopped loving Jesus, but because the system was breaking him. What followed was a difficult transition marked by uncertainty, financial pressure, and identity questions that many ministry leaders quietly face. This conversation pulls back the curtain on isolation, addiction, shame, and the deep need for brotherhood. If you are navigating transition, questioning your direction, or responsible for leading others through change, this episode offers both clarity and hope. No man should have to walk alone. Key Takeaways Ministry leadership can be both deeply fulfilling and profoundly exhausting at the same time. Many church systems unintentionally isolate pastors rather than care for them. Churches often struggle to reach men because they build connection models that don’t align with how men bond. Pornography addiction thrives in isolation and shame, even among pastors. Bringing struggle into the light is the first step toward freedom. Transition seasons destabilize identity, especially around provision and purpose. Intentional, challenge-based brotherhood can anchor men during seasons of uncertainty. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction and framing the conversation about men 01:00 – Don’s ministry journey and transition 06:00 – The celebrity pastor model and systemic pressure 08:00 – Why churches struggle to reach men 16:00 – The five marks of manhood 19:00 – Pornography, shame, and isolation 24:00 – How tribes work differently than typical men’s groups 31:00 – Financial pressure and identity in transition 37:00 – Fulfillment after leaving vocational ministry Ready to take your next step? Visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call about an upcoming transition, termination, or succession. Explore Don’s resources at ManhoodTribes.com and take the quiz at HowManlyAreYou.com . If this episode helped you, consider donating to support leaders navigating transition.

Is there really a difference between ministry and the marketplace? Or have we created a divide that Scripture never intended? In this episode, Curt Swindoll shares insights from 40 years of leadership across nonprofit, church, and for-profit environments. Having transitioned multiple times - sometimes with a plan, sometimes without - Curt challenges the assumption that ministry is something we leave behind. Instead, he invites leaders to rethink their posture toward God, especially during seasons of uncertainty. For leaders navigating burnout, succession, or vocational transition, this conversation reframes the journey. The issue is not whether you are in ministry or business. The deeper issue is whether you are living for God or with Him. And that distinction changes everything. Key Takeaways There is no sacred-secular divide. God is as present in the marketplace as in the church. Burnout often reveals a “for God” posture that has replaced a “with God” relationship. Transitions are rarely clean; God’s presence is not dependent on clarity. Work is one of the primary places of spiritual formation. Discernment is not about finding one perfect path but learning to journey wisely with God. Succession is less about ending ministry and more about shifting where and how ministry happens. Peace and freedom are often the deeper invitation beneath vocational change. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Is There Really Life After Ministry? 02:30 – Sacred vs. Secular: A False Divide 07:00 – Transitioning Without a Plan 10:00 – Life With God vs. Life For God 15:00 – Burnout and Identity in Ministry 21:00 – The Role of Spiritual Formation and Marriage 24:00 – Moving Between Ministry and Marketplace 29:00 – God at the Door in Seasons of Anxiety 33:00 – Lessons from a Lifetime of Ministry Transitions 43:00 – Succession, Discernment, and “Never Say Never” 50:00 – Practical Resources and Final Encouragement If this conversation stirred something in you - whether you're navigating a leadership transition, discerning succession, or simply longing to experience more of a life with God - there are a few trusted next steps. For confidential support and guidance through ministry transitions, visit https://ministrytransitions.com . To explore spiritual formation resources and connect with trained spiritual directors, go to https://graftedlife.org . And if you're leading an organization and want clarity, traction, and a healthier operating rhythm, learn more about EOS at https://www.eosworldwide.com or connect directly with Curt at https://www.eosworldwide.com/curt-swindoll . Wherever you are in your journey, you don’t have to walk it alone.

What if the biggest lie Christian leaders believe is that ministry only happens inside church walls? When pastors and nonprofit leaders transition into the marketplace, many feel like they’ve stepped out of calling and into something lesser. But that assumption may be the very thing limiting the Church’s influence. In this episode, we talk with Chuck Proudfit about faith at work, succession challenges, leadership continuity, and why Christians must rethink the sacred-secular divide. This conversation reframes work as worship and challenges leaders to build legacy that outlives them. Key Takeaways Work is not secular space. It is strategic deployment. The sacred-secular divide quietly undermines Christian leadership. Most succession failures begin long before the transition announcement. Boards must proactively ask leaders about their 10-year vision. Continuity requires infrastructure, not just inspiration. Community shapes faith at work more effectively than content alone. Leadership legacy must include both personal and organizational clarity. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction and Chuck’s faith journey 03:15 – Work as worship and the sacred-secular divide 06:44 – Faith in consulting and marketplace leadership 07:33 – Why church transitions struggle 10:13 – Organic ministry in the workplace 13:30 – The birth of At Work On Purpose 16:44 – Spiritual formation through work 19:05 – The Faith at Work Summit and future frontiers 20:43 – Continuity, succession, and leadership legacy 25:15 – Invitation to the Summit If you are navigating a leadership transition, preparing for succession, or reimagining how faith integrates with your everyday work, take your next step today. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation about your transition, explore how faith and work come together at https://atworkonpurpose.org/ , and learn more about the global Faith at Work Summit at https://faithatworksummit2026.com/ . Whether you are leaving vocational ministry, leading through change, or building what comes next, you do not have to do it alone.