Published by Kevin Klinkenberg
Embracing change, uncertainty and local initiative for our cities and towns kevinklinkenberg.substack.com
Listen on Apple PodcastsI get personal in this episode, in order to ask questions about the nature of what is called the “housing crisis.” Are we all just doom-pilling way too much? As a case study, I talk through the life and history of my parents, and discuss whether or not their life and lifestyle is still available today. I discuss house sizes, mortgage rates, lifestyle choices, lifestyle inflation, and more. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” AI Transcript Introduction Welcome back to The Messy City Podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I’m going to do something a little different today and just talk without a guest about the topic of housing in particular and how it ties into a few other kind of hobby courses of mine. Why Challenge the Housing Narrative Really what I want to spend some time doing is taking a contrarian view of how we talk about the so-called housing crisis. And in one sense, this is kind of fun for me to do. One of the things I really loved about my father is when we would have our discussions or debates in the family about various things that were going on, he would often take an opposite view of Almost just for the sport of it. And the truth is, there are a lot of times he was so good at it, you didn’t really know if he felt that way or not. Because he could do really well to argue multiple sides of an argument. And that was really a lot of fun. It was an education for me. It’s something I wish more people would just do generally and try to see an issue from multiple perspectives and try to steel man different perspectives or perspectives that are different from your own. And so I’ve kind of taken to obviously do that if you know me at all. You know I’ve done that a fair amount in my own life. Not nearly as good as my father was at it, but it has been fun to do occasionally. And I really wanted to apply this to the topic of housing. And there’s a couple of reasons for this. And this also ties into a story. I’m going to tell you a little bit of a story about my parents and how they grew up and their trajectory through life, because I think it’s actually very relevant to this topic. And whether or not we have a housing crisis at all in America, or if we do, what is the actual nature of of that crisis. And I want to talk about this because I just see so much online and in person conversation that I just feel like there are too many people, especially too many young people that have been kind of doom pilled on life today and life in America generally. And the thing that I want to start out that I really want to propose to everybody and talk about is the life that my parents had And their trajectory through life is still available today. It is absolutely and unequivocally still available to anyone who wants to choose the life that they lived. And in my opinion, obviously, I knew them really well. In my opinion, they had a tremendous life. They had a great life. They’ve both passed on in recent years. And so I have to talk in the past tense. But by any measure that matters, they had a great life. They lived well into their 80s. They had four kids. We actually all like each other. So it’s not just like a, you know, there are some families where you can say, well, I love my family. But as my brother used to say, or after my dad passed, he would say, you know, that... We didn’t just love our parents, we really liked our parents. And I think if you’re fortunate to be in a family like that, you know a little bit of what I’m talking about. And the four of us as children all... We get along. We’re still all friends with each other and get along. We enjoy being together. We’re all very different people with different interests and different worldviews. In some senses, we had pretty different childhoods, interestingly enough, because there’s a big age spread in our family. So my parents had four kids that they raised. They had a long, stable marriage. They were able to get consecutively better houses as they aged. And then by the time they hit retirement age, they had saved enough money to be able to do other things that they wanted to do. Along the way, they traveled when they wanted to. They really wanted to get out and see the country, see the world. When we were young, that traveling mostly involved just driving around the United States and going to national parks and big cities and seeing the sights. As they got older and had a little bit more disposable income, they would join tour groups and go or sometimes with family to foreign countries and places they really wanted to visit. And I want to give you some context because my parents were not people that grew up with money at all. And I’m going to share some of this because I think it’s important to understand. How they came to be where they were and some of the choices they made and how it might impact choices that young people especially could make today. My Parents’ Story My mom grew up very poor. She spent a part of her childhood living in a housing project in Syracuse, New York. And she was one of five kids and they, you know, her whole childhood they never had any money for much of anything. And they often lived in not the greatest part of town, in Syracuse, even when they got out of the housing project. And my dad grew up in a small town in Kansas called Baser, which is just outside the Kansas City area. But at the time when he was growing up, it was a dusty little town of like 600 people. And, again, one of five kids. And his dad was an auto mechanic, had his own garage, but also just, you know, like people do in Little Towns, did a little bit of everything. He drove a school bus. We helped out with the mail. We did a lot of different things in the town. But it’s not like they ever really had any money. My Uncle George, one of my dad’s brothers, used to say that they were all poor, but they didn’t know it. And part of that is the nature of living in a small rural community. They had a lot of spare time and freedom to roam. And so they probably were able to, you know, occupy themselves with a lot of things that maybe other kids weren’t. My mom’s father, my mom’s parents had a really difficult marriage. My grandfather, her father basically worked in a deli in Syracuse and he And so he worked in a Jewish deli. He was a very, very personable guy, made a lot of his own, made his own corned beef and bagels and everything. And a lot of the customers liked him, but it’s not like he ever really made a lot of money. And he and his wife, my grandmother, had a really difficult time, eventually ended up divorcing. And my parents ended up meeting each other in sort of a star-crossed romance that I don’t really have time to tell the entire story. But it ended up that they met when my mom was visiting a friend in Leavenworth, Kansas. And... Not too long after that, a romance ensued and eventually a marriage. My parents were born in 1935 and 36, so they’re not boomers. They’re sort of, I guess, what you would call as greatest generation. But they were too young to be deeply invested in the Great Depression or World War II. They were little kids, really, when all that was going on. So I guess in a sense what you could say is they had the cultural memory of those things. They grew up understanding what life was like in the Great Depression. They grew up poor. They grew up during the war and they knew all that that was going on and they were very well attuned to it, but they weren’t part of it. And I think like a lot of people who grew up in that era, they were really affected, especially by the poverty of what was happening. So one of the things that we used to always say about my mom is she could stretch a nickel like anybody’s business. She was frugal her entire life. And that really came from growing up with next to nothing. And then for many years... After they were married and started having kids, they were living off basically one salary, not like a big salary or anything, for a long time. And so my mom really had to stretch everything to make ends meet. I’m going to come back to the housing part of this because I think there’s some importance to all this. The Housing Ladder My parents got married in 1957, on Christmas Eve of 1957, and then right after that, flew off to Germany. My dad at the time, 21, 22 years old, he had been working a little bit, but he decided he wanted to enlist in the Army, and they spent two years in the Army. He was basically sent off to Germany. And so obviously, you know, late 50s, a great time to be sent off to Germany. No active fighting or anything going on. And they spent two years there. My oldest sister was born in Germany. And then my next sister, I guess you could say, was conceived in Germany. And... And then born back here in the United States when they came back. So by the time they came back to the United States, it’s about 1960, and they’ve got two little kids. And at that time, shortly after they bought their first house, which was in a not so great part of the Kansas City area. It was in Kansas City, Kansas. It was not a terrible area, but not like the greatest. And they bought a small house. And I’ve had some trouble finding out the exact details in this house, but I think it was probably a two or three bedroom with one bath. It’s since been added on to, so it’s hard for me to know exactly. But in this period of time, 1960 or so, that would have been their first house. And, you know, my siblings are just going to really... I want to mock my lack of understanding on some of these details, but I think by the time they left that house, my brother had also been born. So there were three kids there. And I want to trace this trajectory a little bit. There’s a story here that I think we don’t talk enough about that was very common and kind of understood in my parents’ era. Which was the idea of buying a small house. New houses were all generally smaller than they are today. There’s no question about that. We’ve had a lot of growth in the average size of houses. So houses were smaller. But it was also kind of understood that you were going to buy... A small house, you were going to build some equity in that, and then you would eventually buy a bigger house. And as you went through the progression of life, as you could afford more, you would buy more. And I’m not entirely sure how... I see a lot more people who are looking to buy their first house who want it all right away. They want that four-bedroom house at the right price, and they’re unhappy that they can’t get that. I don’t want to overgeneralize, but this was something that was really common, certainly in my parents’ era. So my dad, after he came back from the Army, he ended up working for a company called Wilson Foods. Wilson Foods was a meatpacking company. So at the time, one of what they called, I think, the big five meatpacking companies that were in the United States that dominated the field was, Wilson’s was headquartered in Oklahoma City, but it had plants all over the Midwest. And so he started out as a clerk in the office in Kansas City. So he was on a management track, not on the factory track, but he started at a very entry level position. And then the way it kind of worked in our family and with that company was Again, this was an era where people tended to be a lot more loyal to a certain company. And there was more the idea that you find a good company to work for and you might spend your whole career there. So whenever he wanted a promotion or had the opportunity for a promotion, we typically had to move. So this story is going to sound a little crazy because we moved a lot. And people often thought that we were like a military family, that we were military brats. And we used to say, no, we’re not military, we’re meatpacking. And of course, people didn’t have any idea what we’re talking about, but another just little inside joke we had. So I want to talk a little bit as we trace this and think about house size, but also mortgage rates. Because as we talk about housing availability today, especially for sale housing, we’re really stuck on the conversation about house size and about mortgage rates. Well, I think it’s interesting to look at the trajectory that my parents went through and something very similar to millions of people in that generation today. Went through as they started to move on. So I think it was about Mortgage Rates in Historical Context 1966 or so that we moved to Omaha. Uh, and I went back and I just did some historical, uh, tracking of, uh, mortgage, typical mortgage rates in 1966, the typical mortgage rate was about 6%. So that’s really not very far off from where we are today. Uh, depending on what you’re looking at today, A lot of the standard kind of 30-year mortgage rates are around 6.5%. It fluctuates from week to week, month to month, but we’ve kind of been in that zone now for two or three years. And the conversation is very much about how high the mortgage rates are. Um, because we had such a sustained period of very low mortgage rates, such that people like myself, when, uh, we purchased and we, when ultimately refinanced our house in 2021, I think our mortgages, our rate is like 2.75%. So we had millions and millions of mortgages at like 3% or under. And then obviously the rates, uh, went up dramatically. Uh, they went up very, very quickly. Some of the quickest in history. And they’ve more or less settled into where they are the last two or three years, which is about 6.5%. But again, if you look back historically, one of the stories you can tell is that 6.5% is not like an unusually high mortgage rate. It’s just not. You know, I know nobody wants to pay more than, you know... And so why don’t I track here, just by way of example, some of the moves my family made. 1966, that more average mortgage rate was about 6%. In 1970, we moved from Omaha to Dell City, Oklahoma, which is a suburb of Oklahoma City. And the average mortgage rates then were closer to 8%. In 1972, we moved to Oklahoma City itself, and the rates came down a little bit, about 7.4%. In and around 1973, then we moved to Overland Park, Kansas, and mortgage rates had gone up again, a little bit more, closer to 8%. In 1975-ish, maybe 76, we moved to Albert Lee, Minnesota, where there was a meatpacking plant that my dad became the superintendent for. So this started an era where mortgage rates were really rough. So in 75, the average rate was about 9%. It went up from there. You know, in 1980, it was over, in 1980, it was almost 14%. 1984, my parents were able to, my dad was able to get a job in Marshall, Missouri. So we left Albert Lee and moved to Marshall. 84, it was still 13.88% average mortgage rate. And then by the end of that decade, 1990 had come down to about 10 and a quarter percent. And then 94, my parents, right around that period where my parents, um, Bought their final house in Lenexa, Kansas in their retirement. They weren’t quite retired yet. That’s a different story. But in 94, it was about 8%. And so there was a little blip again in 95 or so is about when I bought my first house. That was about eight and a half percent was a typical rate. And then it kind of went on a straight line down more or less from 1995 till about 2021 down to about that three percent rate. And so, again, this is kind of, you know, it’s a bit of a long story. But if you can trace these things historically, you can see that the expectation of paying a six, six and a half, seven percent interest rate is just historically not that high. Now, I know historic doesn’t matter when you’re trying to buy a house today and they’re not as much churn in the housing market. But I mean, that’s just part of the reality that many, many families paid much higher mortgage rates. Now, what about the houses themselves? Well, this is also interesting. When we lived in Omaha, That’s where I was born in 1969. Our house was a three bedroom, one bath ranch with a basement. Um, uh, sort of like a basement playroom. Uh, that was very typical for that era. So there were six of us living in a three bedroom, one bath house. When we moved to Oklahoma, the first house we had was three bedrooms, one and a half baths. And then when we moved to Oklahoma city, again, sort of within the same Metro at that point was our first four bedroom house. So here we are early seventies. Uh, my parents at that point had been married, uh, For 15 years, they had four kids at home. The oldest was now in high school or about high school age. And that was our first four bedroom house. And I think we had two and a half baths in that one. When we moved back to the Kansas City area in 73-ish, we also had a four-bedroom house. So that was a more comfortable kind of a split-level house at that point. And we’re getting to the point there where almost all of us had our own bedrooms, but not all of us. I shared a bedroom with my brother in that house. I shared a bedroom with my brother for quite a long time. And when we moved to Minnesota in the mid-70s and then lived there for about eight years, we had a ranch house in Albert Lea. Housing costs everything. I will say this was my parents’ experience of living in Minnesota was everything was a lot more expensive than they were used to. You couldn’t, in their opinion, couldn’t get as much house for your money. The taxes were a lot higher in Minnesota than in other states. The utility costs were higher. And so we had a ranch house that I think had three bedrooms and then it had a finished basement that we finished. And We put a bedroom in the finished basement that would not meet code today. It did not have the proper exiting. But that was something we did. And it was to the point where Minnesota, the winters could be pretty harsh. And so we would commonly close off the family room for the winter in Minnesota and just not use it. We had another room that had a TV where we spent the winter with But again, this is just kind of indicative of the frugal mindset that my parents had. And Lifestyle and Frugality I want to say that because I think it’s important when you’re thinking about lifestyle differences in their generation versus today. And I’m not here to pass judgment on anybody necessarily necessarily. But that frugal lifestyle that they lived for many, many years enabled them to have the things that they wanted to have and do the things that they wanted to do. So what are some examples of that? Well, we almost never ate out. So I can barely even remember times as a kid that we would go out to a restaurant. My mom bought generic brands of food. She used coupons regularly. When we took vacations as a family, they were typically driving vacations. And my mom would pack a cooler full of food and we would stop at highway rest areas and eat our meals there. And we stayed in very cheap motels. Sometimes there was camping, not a lot. My mom did not like camping. But... And I’m here to tell you my memories of those trips were great. As a kid, I loved those trips. We would start, you know, for example, in Minnesota and we would drive all the way to the West Coast and we would go to the national parks in Washington State and Oregon and, you know, went to Redwoods National Park in Northern California. Or we would start in Minnesota and we would drive all the way to Disney World and we would hit sites along the way. And to me, those trips were magical and wonderful and a lot of fun. And I think for my parents, they were really great trips as well. But we did things on the cheap. And we just did not waste a lot of money on things. But it didn’t stop my parents from Seeing the things they wanted to see and enjoying the things that they wanted to enjoy in life. And today, the term that we
Eric Kronberg is back again, to dive deeper into the topics of housing choice, scale and essentially - what works and what doesn’t. Eric’s firm, Kronberg Urbanists & Architects , produces some of the routinely best graphic content to explain these complex issues. In this episode, in particular we discuss his updated Housing Choice Catalog , which is a tour de force of a document for anyone remotely interested in these issues. We discuss how to implement change, what some of the more important changes, are, and how to do this in real American towns and places. We also hit on one of my favorite topics, which is a discussion of what scales more quickly: small-scale infill or large multifamily/mixed-use projects. If you stick with us, you’ll also learn about the model to have a successful neighborhood center built around Homer Simpson’s favorite things. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
Stand by for a very Kansas City-focused episode. For this one, Abby Newsham and I were invited to record a live podcast during KC Design Week , at the Kansas City Art Institute. Abby now hosts the Unconventional Urbanism podcast. While there’s some inside baseball in here for Kansas City people, we also cover issues that are germane to cities all over, including: * development / redevelopment issues in urban core communities * elimination of minimum parking regulations * creating high-value pedestrian amenities * catalytic large projects * why it’s important to have a growth mentality * the critical issue of public safety in urban communities Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
The tale of Route 66 might seem like just a tale of freedom on the road, the great American desire for exploration, and our love affair with the car. And it is all that. But it’s also much more. It’s about the cities, towns and unique places all along the route and their stories. Chris Elisara and John Paget are sharing those stories, in a 100th anniversary documentary about Route 66. I happened to catch up with them in Springfield, Missouri, which is where Route 66 was in some part given birth. Chris and John own First and Main Films , and have their own love affair with telling stories of underdog cities and towns. We crossed paths originally with the New Urbanism Film Festival, which has now evolved into something much bigger called the Better Cities Film Festival , based in Detroit. Be sure to catch their work about Route 66 , something that has occupied them for something close to a lifetime, and which tells us so much about America’s history and our cities and towns. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
Sometimes a local story is just that - a local story. And sometimes it transcends. Yes, Mike Zeller is very much rooted in Kansas City, and this is a very local story about how to take advantage of our long-overlooked river assets. But this story is really so much more than all that. This is about finding value in what other people might not see; about perseverance; about not giving up when so many others would on a “crazy” idea. More than anything, this is about not giving up on yourself. The Rock Island Bridge in Kansas City may indeed become a local landmark - I believe it’s well on the way. But this is so much more about having confidence in yourself and your ideas, and not assuming the “experts” and the “professionals” have it all figured out. How many times have you said, “someone should do something with that?” Maybe that someone is you. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
Every so often, an idea comes along that makes so much sense it makes you wonder - why haven’t we been talking more about this? In that vein comes today’s guest, Eli Smith, who is pioneering something called the Faith-Based Housing Initiative . Eli describes it well, but there’s a fascinating juncture here of issues related to churches and faith institutions of all kinds; the societal issues around loneliness; and the lack of housing - especially meaningful, community-based housing. Eli and his partners help cohorts of faith-based institutions in certain markets to identify how they can develop housing themselves, often on excess land they aren’t using. While this runs up against a whole other set of issues that churches and temples face, it offers a glimpse at something very hopeful as well. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
Zach Molzer is 25, and he wants you to know that’s an advantage. His team is young, energetic, and optimistic. His story of quickly becoming a developer with impact in Kansas City shows us that you don’t need to have decades of experience. You just need to want to do it badly, and get others excited about your vision. In just a couple of short years, Zach has created a company , undertaken two very complex redevelopment projects, created a huge presence on social media, built a bus stop out of an actual bus, connected with local elected officials, and is gearing up for much more. I hope you find inspiration in how Zach relates to us, that you can just do things. You don’t need permission, you don’t need the approval of a committee - you can just decide to do something, and pursue it relentlessly. For those of us that are frequently skeptical of the value of social media, Zach also offers a lesson in how to use the technology to great advantage. Check out his Twitter/X page or YouTube for more. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
Bobby Fijan doesn’t want you to give up on families living in cities. One thing he said in this episode that really stuck out with me, “People tolerate disorder less when kids are around.” I think that’s right on, and that we too easily acquiesce to the notion that cities are just for the young, or the retired. Bobby , like many of my guests, isn’t content to just talk about the issues. He’s become relentless in his pursuit of the best family-friendly floor plans for urban living, and has now taken that to the creation of the American Housing Corporation . Their motto might as well be, “rowhouses for all.” Bobby and his partners are pursuing true vertical integration of a nationwide development company, with the goal of doing really great urban infill housing. Can they do it? I wouldn’t bet against them. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
Social media is an unlikely place to find truly positive and optimistic people. But occasionally you find one. Today’s example: the charming and determined Coby Lefkowitz, whose relentless optimism can only rub off on you. Coby is a developer in New York state, and a prolific writer, poster and speaker on the value of beauty in the built environment. He’s written a book called “Building Optimism” and has a Substack by the same name. In his Substack, you can read more about his forthcoming project in Kingston, NY , and what all he’s trying to accomplish. Coby and I discuss the role of optimism in a longer, healthier life , whether or not building beautifully is actually more expensive, and the intriguing benefits of thinking of your social media audience as just yourself and your Mom. Coby’s story is also a great example of how a young person can gain valuable experience working for someone else for a few years, grinding it out, and refining your skills before embarking on your own. You can find Coby on X/Twitter here . Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
We take a break from our routine conversations today to have some fun, and talk about the wonders of travel hacking with my sister, Cindy Weir. Cindy epitomizes how to really leverage having a system for travel hacking, as she made the most of her small business to rack up points. It’s paid off incredibly for her, as she’s traveled to 22 countries in just the last five years, in addition to doing so in style. We go over how she got there, some of the many little tips and tricks we’ve learned over the years, and even share insider knowledge on airline lounges, lodging, and more. Are you someone that loves to travel? Do you own a small business or have an active side hustle? If you can say yes to both of those, then you need to listen to how Cindy it, and you can as well. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
Longtime friend-of-the-pod Abby Newsham returns, on her hiatus from the popular Upzoned podcast. Abby is a practicing planner in Kansas City with Olsson Associates . Abby is very active working with communities leading planning charrettes, and we talk at length about what a charrette actually is, the value of it, and why doing charrettes can actually give you hope that people can solve problems together. Then we talk about Billy Cooney’s article that was republished in Southern Urbanism , called, “Zoning Won’t Save Us, ” which is basically on piece on why we over-rely on technocratic solutions to problems that are actually very human. I might say, you can’t solve a culture problem with a technical manual. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
One of the perils of being in a profession or field for many years is how you see beyond simple dualities. By that I mean, you hear people argue confidently and vehemently about X vs Y, but you know there’s actually a Z they’re not even thinking about. Sometimes people talk about this as a “third way” solution. I confess that my whole life and career I’ve mostly been interested in those “third” ways, since I find they tend to have much more wisdom and insight than the other two. This came to mind recently when I was very kindly asked to speak with a group from ULI-Nashville about starter homes - the need, the barriers and the solutions. Because I can’t help myself, I opted to talk more about what I think we mean by starter homes, and some options for them that don’t get enough play in the conversation. This episode is a longer version of that talk, including the three different ways I look at starter homes. The issue is very timely, and it’s critical. We’re having a terrible time getting people into home ownership right now. A lot of this I covered in a previous conversation with Charlie Bilello , on the financial causes and barriers. But I’m at heart still an architect, so I think a lot about buildings and building types as part of this, and search for ways to talk about the problem in concrete terms. Let me know what you think in the comments. What type of starter home do you wish to have, or did you have? How about your parents and grandparents? What is truly missing in the marketplace, and how do we get to solutions in your opinion? Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
One of the great trends in housing from recent decades has been the revived interest in micro-communities, especially those organized around shared courtyards. I first started to learn about this in the late 1990s, and am delighted to say it’s really picked up steam since then. Ross Chapin has been at the forefront of all this, and taught many of us how to do it well. In this episode, Ross talks about how in some sense he accidentally got into doing this kind of work, how it changed his practice, and then importantly we explore key approaches to design and details that make it all work. Ross likes to say, “If you’re in your happy place, you’re going to sing.” But do we achieve that just by lining up a bunch of buildings around a lawn space? No, the details really matter, and Ross takes us through how to balance security and connection, how to think about layers of space, and how to design small homes and spaces that feel great. Every once in a while, I get in trouble with diehard YIMBY (Yes In My Backyard) activists because I insist that design of housing matters, and we need to build housing that actually satisfies human needs. Yes, we need to make it vastly easier to build just about everything. But too often we overlook human well being, and ignore aspects of our human nature that determine success or failure in new developments. Ross Chapin has blazed a path for all of us to better understand this all. Take a listen. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
Jason Segedy returns for his third appearance on the show, as Jason now works in North Canton, Ohio as the Deputy Director of Administration. Jason has also gotten more active on LinkedIn in recent months, with his usual provocative and insightful thoughts on a variety of topics. I highly suggest you look him up! We hit on why a huge supply of older homes may not be an advantage, especially in a weak housing market, the challenges of population decline (and why people shouldn’t be so blase about it), and what it might take to actually recruit people to the region. We also manage to discuss my pet issue as it relates to the management of cities - at what scale is best for communities to operate? What’s it like on the inside, working at larger and smaller scales? Jason is also always thoughtful on the big picture and what he sees happening in the culture and the country. We talk about why he thinks this is a big moment for a lot of change. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
After three years of podcasting, I share some thoughts on why I do this, and what I hope to achieve and share. Maybe you like it, maybe you don’t - either is fine, really. But my focus is and will continue to be on people who take concrete action, not on obsessive policy wonkery. It’s not that policy wonkery doesn’t matter - it’s just that too many people waste too much time focusing on it, when life has so many more productive ways to pass the day or the years. Similarly, my focus is on the so-called Flyover Country. It’s what I care about, it’s what I love, it’s the people and places I want to succeed. If that’s not your cup of tea, if that limits the reach of this Substack and podcast, that’s just fine. It’s not possible to be all things to all people, and each of us has to find where to direct our intentions. In this episode, I share a story about St. Joseph, Missouri, and how it ties to this focus and a mindset of what really makes a difference in life. Live your life somewhere that needs you and wants you. Build things. Create life and activity. It’s what we are meant to do. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
For a guy that never intended to be a developer, Steve Nygren is having a remarkable impact on development and so much more. Steve led the development of Serenbe , which is a “biophilic” community southwest of Atlanta. This story is nothing short of remarkable. Even if nothing more had happened than getting 500+ property owners that control about 60 square miles of land to agree on a framework for future development, that alone would be incredible. But when you start to learn more and experience the town of Serenbe itself, it becomes quickly apparent this is a model worth emulating. Serenbe employs a more historic model of a rural village that is walkable and fairly dense, mixed with land set aside for agriculture and experiencing nature. Along the way, the community has touched the world of regenerative agriculture and New Urbanism both, along with a deep dive into thinking about healthy living. Steve talks about using your influence when you have the opportunity, and how to help the next generation. His book, “Start In Your Own Backyard: Transferring Where We Live with Radical Common Sense” dives deep into this philosophy and work. I would add, he’s also got a lot to share about how to bootstrap a large, master planned development. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
One of the mantras of small or incremental development workshops for years has been, “no one is coming to save you.” The solution to your neighborhood’s or community’s problem isn’t some outside force. It’s you. A similar mantra has been, “Brooklyn doesn’t need your butt.” Make it more colorful at your own leisure. We are often attracted by the allure of the sexy place, but it’s the not-sexy places that really need time, attention and effort from people who care. This episode gave me a chance to talk with someone who feels both those mantras deeply, and is doing something about it. Justin Pregont, from Pomeroy Development in Atchison, Kansas has taken up the mantle himself. He’s solving problems through real estate in his town, and in other rural towns across the state of Kansas. Justin was eager to see the types of interesting buildings and tenants he saw in bigger markets in his own town. So after realizing no one else was going to do it, he decided to figure it out himself. There’s a lot of inspiration, and a lot of hard reality in this episode. Maybe you think, I live in California or New York or Florida - what can I possibly learn from someone in small-town Kansas? Give it a listen, and then let me know. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
One of the most shocking pieces of information I’ve seen in the last year is how high the average age of all homebuyers has become. Depending on the source, I’ve seen between 59 and 62 years old. This is the *average* age. We’ve never seen a housing market quite like this, so I turned to Charlie Bilello , the Chief Market Strategist for the firm Creative Planning to help me understand it better. While I talk at length about the regulatory, design and policy aspects of housing on the podcast, Charlie is an expert in the financial side. We trace a bit of the history of how we changed the idea of housing from shelter to a financial product, and then hit on how those policy changes have created the mess we are in today. Charlie has a wealth of ideas that are admittedly unpopular, but could go to great lengths to fix the housing market over the short and long term. Along the way, we talk about fifty year mortgages, the impact of this issue on everyone under forty years old, the concentration of wealth with Baby Boomers, and why it’s so hard to make changes. If you want more from Charlie, check out his excellent YouTube channel. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
About forty years ago, the New Urbanism came on the scene with bold and creative ideas for building entirely new towns. The founders of the movement intended to prove that we could really build beautiful, walkable new places in America, much like some of our historic norms. Those early communities captured incredible attention, far beyond their actual size. And they’ve influenced a couple generations of people in the planning and development world. But it’s also true that most of the new places built were fairly modest in scale. Seaside, Florida, the famous community on the Florida panhandle, is just sixty acres in size. Many other new communities were the size of a suburban subdivision, or a smaller master-planned community. This isn’t a knock on the projects, it’s just the reality of what could be achieved and who the clients were. In recent years, an even bigger and more audacious proposal has come forward called California Forever . The founders have acquired over 50,000 acres in the Bay Area in Solano County. I speak with Gabriel Metcalf, the Head of Planning, to discuss the plans for this new community - the whys, whats and hows. This is a massive effort, and one that’s intentionally trying to renew notions of what can be done in a state that’s become famously difficult in which to build. Gabriel and I talk about not just the specifics of the proposed community, but how this effort fits into the historic context of new towns, and what he sees as precedents. Can we still build new places in America that are inspiring and solve 21st century problems? And what do new towns say about our existing cities and their struggles? We discuss all this and more. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe
Andrew Burleson asks us to think about, “what is the system that creates space for people to live?” Systems thinking may seem terribly wonky, and in reality, it is. But systems thinking gave us the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and a whole host of ideas that underpin western civilization. Systems thinking was behind the movement that created administrative city planning and zoning in the 19-teens and 20s. YOU might not be thinking about systems, but someone else is. So the question is, what kind of systems do we want and need, that produce the best outcomes for human beings? Andrew is a man of many hats, not the least of which is he’s the Board Chair for Strong Towns. Beyond that, he’s a terrific thinker in his own right, and writes a Substack called The Post-Suburban Future . This episode is an outgrowth of a post he wrote called, “Could we create land use rules that work better for everyone?” If the episode intrigues you, read the post, too. He goes into even more detail with images there. The main focus of our conversation is a notion I described a few years ago, which is we need to “unleash the swarm ” to solve our housing and development issues. Andrew does an exceptional job of describing the problem (all development now is discretionary and professionalized), and that our land use regulations essentially require stasis. Stasis sounds comforting to many, but it actually works against our intentions when practiced in reality. In this episode, we talk about how to de-professionalize housing, which is a phrase I really like, and how to drive incremental change by the context of a block or neighborhood. Andrew’s phrase that I love is, “the individual project is small, but the collective output is enormous.” As I reflected on that, it occurred to me that’s the entire spirit of the American experience, and one we’ve gotten away from to our detriment. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page . Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here . If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “ Why Be Friends ” Outro: “ Fairweather Friend ” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe