Exploring threats to global stability from Ukraine to China to the Middle East with host Gavin Esler – former BBC News presenter, Washington correspondent and host of Newsnight – plus Ukraine-based war reporter Oz Katerji and independent conflict analyst Emma Beals. This Is Not A Drill dives deep into the dangers, corruption, conflicts, disinformation, rivalries and ruthless realpolitik that are making our world ever more dangerous. Support This Is Not A Drill on Patreon from just £3 per month to get each episode early plus bonus material and exclusive merchandise. From Podmasters, the team behind Oh God, What Now?, Paper Cuts and The Bunker.
Just days into the Iran conflict, strikes had taken out much of the country’s military leadership. Yet the conflict continues with a new regime installed in Tehran. With the new Supreme Leader Mojtaba Khamenei unseen since the outbreak of war, who is really in charge now? And as peace negotiations continue to stall, what drives Tehran’s decisions? Gavin Esler discusses the latest from Iran with Professor Ali Ansari, founding director of the Institute for Iranian Studies at the University of St Andrews. • Find out if you’re owed on car finance at refundclub.co.uk/drill • Refund Club is a trading style of Sandsford Law Limited, authorised and regulated by the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA no. 8008114). Checking is free. A fee is payable only if your claim is successful. Eligibility: car finance taken out in the UK between 2007 and 2021. The average claim is around £829 per agreement; this is an average and not a guarantee of the amount you will receive. You can also claim yourself for free by contacting your lender or the Financial Ombudsman Service. refundclub.co.uk/drill • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Inside Zelenskyy’s military turmoil
A week of turmoil within Ukraine’s armed forces has seen protestors take to the streets and a chaotic series of changes at the very top of military command. What comes next for the future of Ukraine's defence, after a week of damaging political upheaval? And what does it mean for Zelenskyy’s military strategy? Oz Katerji is joined by Jimmy Rushton, special correspondent at the Kyiv Independent, for the background on a story which has rocked Ukraine and its armed forces as they continue to hold out against the Russian invasion. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Oz Katerji. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Is the “True European Army” coming? – Macron, France and the future of European defence
European security is in a state of crisis that would have been hard to imagine when Emmanuel Macron took office as French President in 2017. What happens when a President whose term has been so dominated by the threat of Russia, the fate of NATO and fears for Europe’s independence comes to the end of his term? Fresh from the NATO summit, Macron turned his final Bastille Day into a statement of European unity and resolve – but questions remain over his successor, European rearmament and America’s commitment to NATO. Could the ‘true European Army’ that Macron once posited by the answer? Gavin Esler talks it over with Sophie Pedder, Paris bureau chief at The Economist. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Inside the NATO conference – A breakdown from Ankara
As member states gathered for the NATO conference in Ankara this week, leaders faced a series of questions over the future of the security alliance. As President Trump flew into Turkey criticising allies over spending commitments and their support in the Iran conflict, could they rely on the US commitment to NATO any longer? And with Russia’s war on Ukraine ongoing, and the looming threat that Putin may yet test NATO’s resolve by targeting a member state, can allies meet defence budget pledges and defend Europe within a NATO less reliant on America? Oz Katerji hears the latest from the conference halls from Ed Arnold, Senior Associate Fellow, International Security at RUSI, the Royal United Services Institute. • Special offer! Get 20% off any vehicle history check at carvertical.com/drill • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Oz Katerji. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Expensive Lessons – What America vs Iran taught us about modern warfare
The United States’ war with Iran is a reminder that it’s easier to start a war than to end it. Many other lessons from the conflict are also being analysed right now, from how relatively low-cost weapons change the economics of war, to how even a far-away war can affect all of us in our daily lives. Dr Neda Bolourchi, Middle East historian and nonresident fellow with the Institute for Global Affairs Eurasia Group, joins Gavin Esler to explore some of the ways in which the Iran war is making military strategists, politicians, governments and ultimately the rest of us think very differently about conflict in the 21st century. Read Dr Bolourchi’s article The Hidden Systems of Modern War: Ten Takeways from the Iran War for the Modern War Institute here. • Special offer! Get 20% off any vehicle history check at carvertical.com/drill • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Ukraine Strikes – Is Russia’s war machine faltering?
Ukrainian drone swarms have hit targets in major Russian cities, while disrupting its military assets and vital oil supplies. Could this be a turning point in the war more than four years after Russia’s full-scale invasion began? Gavin Esler is joined by John Lough, senior research fellow at the New Eurasia Strategies Centre and associate fellow in the Russia Eurasia programme at Chatham House. • Special offer! Get 20% off any vehicle history check at carvertical.com/drill • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Trump’s Iran deal — Does it reveal a US divide with Israel?
News of the framework for a peace deal between Iran and the United States - if it holds - might be the beginning of the end of a conflict that has unsettled not just the Middle East and the world economy but also Washington’s relationships with its allies. Even if President Trump claims some kind of victory in Iran - with stories about arguments and possible rifts between Trump and Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, how far will the United States and Israel agree on the way forward? Gavin Esler is joined from Washington by Steven Cook, senior fellow for Middle East and African studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Germany braces for war – Can rearmament secure Europe?
Germany is rearming as the Russian threat looms over Europe and much of the continent’s security rests on its success. Backed by an emergency ‘Zeitenwende’ fund and an ever-expanding defence budget, Germany is undertaking a profound military transformation with the aim of becoming Europe’s strongest conventional army. What does this mean more broadly? And where do they need to focus? Jörg Lau, foreign policy correspondent at Die Zeit, joins Gavin Esler to discuss how the budget will be spent and the challenges facing Germany – from domestic politics to European unity and the uncertainty over relations with Trump’s US administration. You can buy Jörg Lau’s new book Der Westen Sind Jetzt Wir (in German) here. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Xi and Putin – What do they really want from each other?
Beyond the pomp and pageantry of Vladimir Putin’s Beijing summit with Xi Jinping, what do Russia and China need from each other? And how strong is their relationship? Plus, coming hot on the heels of Donald Trump’s own Beijing visit, what does it mean for the geopolitical balance in an era of great power competition? Gavin Esler joins Joseph Webster, senior fellow at the Atlantic Council and editor of the independent China-Russia Report to discuss. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Order vs. Chaos – Who is thriving in a world of crisis?
In a new book, Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail, co-founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations Mark Leonard argues that we have entered an age of ‘un-order’ – when the rules and norms of the international order no longer hold sway. Can democratic leaders find a way to meet the challenges of an era of widening conflict, geopolitical competition and political division? In today’s episode, Mark joins Gavin Esler to discuss a new age of instability, and asks who is best prepared to survive chaos, and how? Buy Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail through our affiliate bookshop and you’ll help fund the podcast by earning us a small commission for every sale. Bookshop.org’s fees help support independent bookshops too. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
All guns blazing – How the arms trade went into overdrive
As drones and missiles darken the skies above conflicts in Ukraine and the Middle East, is a transformation in modern warfare leading to a new arms race? And as technology and tactics evolve, which weapons and defence systems are being bought, and who is buying them? Gavin Esler discusses the realities of the arms trade in 2026 with Pieter Wezeman, senior researcher in the Arms Transfers Programme at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Drone masters – How Ukraine reinvented modern warfare
Putin thought that Ukraine would quickly fold under a massively superior Russian onslaught. Instead, the War has seen Ukraine reinventing itself as a world expert in drone warfare, exploiting cheap replaceable tech and digital networks to strike deep and painfully into Russia. Ukraine now leads the world in the air defence expertise required in today’s conflict zones – and nations across Europe and the Middle East now consult Ukraine on the fast-evolving drone tech they need in today’s unstable world. Can Kyiv use drones to gain a significant advantage in the war? And what will it mean for future conflicts, the ethics of war, and international security? Oz Katerji looks at the new frontier of battlefield tech with journalist and associate research fellow at the Henry Jackson Society, David Kirichenko. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Oz Katerji. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Poison arsenal – The deadly return of bioweapons
Though Saddam Hussein tried to develop them and North Korea is accused of stockpiling them, biological weapons have been considered taboo for decades. Theoretically they’re banned. But intelligence agencies and military leaders are increasingly warning of wider clandestine programmes to develop deadly mass toxins, and A.I. is lowering the barriers to entry dramatically. As governments scramble to keep up and frontier tech runs out of control, are we about to enter a new age of bioweapons and bioterrorism? Gavin Esler talks to Dr Cassidy Nelson, director of biosecurity policy at the Centre for Long-Term Resilience, about this rising threat and what we can do about it. Advertisers! Want to reach smart, engaged, influential people? Some 3.5 MILLION people download and watch our podcasts every month – and they love our shows. Why not get YOUR brand in front of our influential listeners with podcast advertising? Contact ads@podmasters.co.uk to find out more. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Inside Russia’s web of terror – How Kremlin proxies wreak havoc across Europe
Acts of sabotage and arson spreading across Europe are persistently connected to Russia. Gavin Esler is joined by Shaun Walker, the Guardian's central and eastern Europe correspondent, to discuss the Kremlin’s shadow warfare network and the chaos state-sponsored terror is causing across the continent. • Advertisers! Want to reach smart, engaged, influential people? Some 3.5 MILLION people download and watch our podcasts every month – and they love our shows. Why not get YOUR brand in front of our influential listeners with podcast advertising? Contact ads@podmasters.co.uk to find out more. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
America against the World Part 4 – The New Normal?
The final episode of a four-part series from This Is Not A Drill… This time: International leaders cling to the idea that Trump’s violent overthrow of the world order and embrace of raw power will prove temporary. But what if it isn’t? What if we’ve entered a new age where might makes right? And after Iran and Venezuela, is there any coherent vision behind America’s new foreign policy – or is it just driven by anger and greed? Dr Célia Belin of the European Council on Foreign Relations explains how Trump has set out to remake the world in his own cynical image. And Richard Haass, former President of the Council on Foreign Relations and advisor to President George HW Bush, describes how Trump’s aggressive, values-free foreign policy means that if countries like Britain don’t band together, they must choose between submitting to America or cutting a deal with their enemies. • We hope you enjoyed this miniseries. Get fresh insights into geopolitics early when you back us Patreon. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
America against the World Part 3 – Who will fill the Power Vacuum?
A four-part series from This Is Not A Drill… Get the complete series now when you support us on Patreon. How will we cope with the end of the Pax Americana – and what comes next? This time: As Trump flips the table and walks away from America’s old international role, China want to take advantage. The People’s Republic is squaring up to the US on multiple fronts – economic, technological, cultural and potentially militarily. Sir Robin Niblett, author of The New Cold War, talks to Gavin Esler about whether China is as strong as it claims to be, the truth about the Sino-Russian relationship, and why this Cold War won’t be the same as the last one. And Ulrike Franke, German political analyst and fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations, looks at what’s left of the old international order. • The final episode of America against the World is out on Monday 27 April. Get it right now when you support us on Patreon. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
America against the World Part 2 – Is Washington pulling the world apart?
A new four-part series from This Is Not A Drill… Get the complete series now when you support us on Patreon. How will we cope with the end of Pax Americana – and what comes next? Gavin Esler dives deep into a harsh new era of international relations. In this second episode, has Trump broken the trust-based world order – or just exposed it? Are we building a hostile world of fortresses? What would NATO look like without the US? Ukrainian journalist and author Nataliya Gumenyuk explains how Trump risks making America irrelevant in the world. Kori Schake of the American Enterprise Institute describes how MAGA is actively driving democracies away from America. And Dr Rebecca Harding of the Centre for Economic Security argues that Trump’s tariffs and America’s attacks on the rule of law amount to a world economic war. • Episode 3 is out on Thursday 23 April. Follow us so you don’t miss it. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
New Mini-Series – America against the World – Part 1: There are No Rules Any More
A new four-part series from This Is Not A Drill… Get the complete series now when you support us on Patreon. Trump’s reckless war on Iran was the culmination of a year of aggressive rhetoric and scorn for allies from the White House. It also cemented a new American ethos: the United States will do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, without concern for friends and allies. The Atlanticist nightmare has come true. America has abandoned the world. So how will we cope with the end of Pax Americana – and what comes next? In the first of a new limited series from This Is Not A Drill, Gavin Esler speaks to diplomats and experts to take the long view of this harsh new era in international relations. This time Nahal Toosi, senior foreign affairs correspondent at Politico, explains how the Iran War has already changed the world. And Dr. Leslie Vinjamuri, the president and CEO of the Chicago Council on Global Affairs, explains the deep and dangerous roots of the America First mindset. • Episode 2 is out on Monday 20 April. Follow us so you don’t miss it. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
America against the World - trailer
A brand new four-part mini-series from This Is Not A Drill...as we face the end of Pax Americana, what comes next? Get all episodes now via our Patreon or subscribe to the Podmasters Originals channel on Apple Podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
China vs America – Who will be the soft power superpower?
As America turns against the world, China is seeing more and more opportunities to grow. Its soft power influence is growing and cultural influence is blooming globally. How is this happening and what impact will it have? Gavin Esler is joined by Dr Yu Jie, senior research fellow on China in the Asia-Pacific Programme at Chatham House, to discuss. • Advertisers! Want to reach smart, engaged, influential people? Some 3.5 MILLION people download and watch our podcasts every month – and they love our shows. Why not get YOUR brand in front of our influential listeners with podcast advertising? Contact ads@podmasters.co.uk to find out more. • Support us on Patreon to keep This Is Not A Drill producing thought-provoking podcasts like this. Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Managing Editor Jacob Jarvis. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
