Books & Writers · The Creative Process: Novelists, Screenwriters, Playwrights, Poets, Non-fiction Writers & Journalists Talk

Chiara Barzini has spent her life navigating the literal and cultural fault lines between Italy and California. Today we will discuss her book, Aqua: A Story of Water and Lost Dreams , and her life as an artist living between two countries. In her acclaimed 2017 novel, Things That Happened Before the Earthquake , she wrote about arriving in the San Fernando Valley just weeks after a catastrophic natural disaster and the illusions of the '90s. In Aqua , she examines nature, the California water crisis and the broken dreams of the Hollywood machine. We talk about family, film, art as an act of faith and our collective ecological coming of age, where the end of empire meets the end of abundance, and the consequences of hypercapitalism and colonialism. What does it mean to stare our illusions in the eye and find the courage to imagine a better future? (0:00) Water as Power (2:17) The Necessity of Illusions (4:24) Aqua: A Reading - On Hollywood and Water (7:51) The Edge of Apocalypse & Writing (9:10) The Etruscans and the Art of Dying (13:13) Translation and the Creative Spark (14:38) Raising Children in a Crazy World (16:18) Poetry, Ruins, and The Waste Land (18:48) Scents and Sounds of Two Cities (Rome and Los Angeles) (20:43) The Connection with Animals and Nature (22:54) The Evolution of Love and Compassion (24:12) The Memory Museum (27:04) We are in this lifetime together Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

“I think first of all that in order to have disillusion, you need to have illusion and I really want to sort of take a stand in the name of being a delusional person, you know? I do think illusions are necessary to our sense of creativity, and we need to fall in love with extreme projects, and we need to have ideas that are sometimes unsustainable. We need to dream big in order to be creative and feel alive. The illusions that are a part of Aqua are larger illusions. They're illusions that have to do with my adult life. They're connected to nature and the presence or absence of water, the illusion that we can keep sustaining a city even though the water has run out.” My guest today, Chiara Barzini , has spent her life navigating the literal and cultural fault lines between Italy and California. Today we will discuss her book, Aqua: A Story of Water and Lost Dreams , and her life as an artist living between two countries. In her acclaimed 2017 novel, Things That Happened Before the Earthquake , she wrote about arriving in the San Fernando Valley just weeks after a catastrophic natural disaster and the illusions of the '90s. In Aqua , she examines nature, the California water crisis and the broken dreams of the Hollywood machine. We talk about family, film, art as an act of faith and our collective ecological coming of age, where the end of empire meets the end of abundance, and the consequences of hypercapitalism and colonialism. What does it mean to stare our illusions in the eye and find the courage to imagine a better future? (0:00) The Necessity of Illusions (1:40) Chiara Barzini, Author, Screenwriter (4:44) The End of Empire and Ecological Anxiety (12:15) The Allure and Cruelty of Capitalism (16:07) Aqua: A Reading - On Hollywood and Water (21:02) Screenwriter Robert Towne and the Legacy of Chinatown (26:20) AI Consumption and Water Bankruptcy (30:23) The Edge of Apocalypse and Bombay Beach (33:41) The Etruscans and the Art of Dying (42:33) Translation and Creativity (44:28) Raising Children in a Crazy World (47:30) Poetry, Ruins, and The Waste Land (57:33) Scents and Sounds of Rome and Los Angeles (01:04:17) The Connection with Animals and Nature (01:07:35) The Evolution of Love and Compassion (01:09:17) The Memory Museum (01:13:00) We Are in This Lifetime Together Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

“We are in the middle of a labyrinth which suggests to us many fake corridors. What's the superpower of literature? Literature is like an antidote against propaganda. Propaganda explains the world easily in a two-dimensional way. Literature gives you a more complex explanation. Literature tells personal stories.” Today, we have a conversation about time, memory, and the bittersweet geography of human sorrow. Georgi Gospodinov is widely considered one of the most daring voices in contemporary European literature. His acclaimed novel, The Physics of Sorrow , won the prestigious Jan Michalski Prize in 2016 , blending ancient myth and quantum physics to chronicle the delicate realities of post-socialist Eastern Europe. Joining him is Angela Rodel , a brilliant linguist, musician, and translator whose profound artistic empathy carries the flowing cadences of the Bulgarian language into vivid English. Together, this extraordinary creative duo made history by winning the 2023 International Booker Prize for Time Shelter —the first book written in Bulgarian to ever receive the honor. Time Shelter is a masterfully dark, funny, and prescient novel. It begins with an enigmatic psychiatrist opening a clinic that treats Alzheimer’s patients by meticulously recreating past decades to match their internal clocks. But the experiment quickly escapes the clinic walls, triggering a pan-European crisis where entire nations hold democratic referendums to choose which era of the past they will retreat into. It is a book that holds up a mirror to our own world, exploring what happens when a civilization faces a deficit of meaning and tries to weaponize nostalgia. (0:00) The Trap of Nostalgia (2:13) The Art of Translation (5:44) The Pandemic of the Past (11:30) Reading from ‘Time Shelter’ (14:28) Death and the Gardener (19:34) The Translator's Calling (26:05) Cultural Rhythms of the Bulgarian Language (30:00) The Nonlinear Approach to Storytelling (34:30) Separating Personal and Historical Pasts (42:55) Storytelling vs Propaganda (47:19) Bodies, Animals and the Loneliness of the Minotaur (56:00) Reading ' Eight Minutes and 19 Seconds’ (1:00:28) What makes a good life? What has given your life meaning? (1:04:18) Childhood, Memory and Imagination (1:10:38) Reflections on God and the Stories His Grandmother Told Him (1:17:20) Education and the Empathic Imagination (1:23:25) The Museum of Memory (1:26:15) The Importance of Hugging and Empathy (1:28:02) AI and the Future of Humanity Episode Website www.creativep rocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

Today, we have a conversation about time, memory, and the bittersweet geography of human sorrow. Georgi Gospodinov is widely considered one of the most daring voices in contemporary European literature. His acclaimed novel, The Physics of Sorrow , won the prestigious Jan Michalski Prize in 2016 , blending ancient myth and quantum physics to chronicle the delicate realities of post-socialist Eastern Europe. Joining him is Angela Rodel , a brilliant linguist, musician, and translator whose profound artistic empathy carries the flowing cadences of the Bulgarian language into vivid English. Together, this extraordinary creative duo made history by winning the 2023 International Booker Prize for Time Shelter —the first book written in Bulgarian to ever receive the honor. Time Shelter is a masterfully dark, funny, and prescient novel. It begins with an enigmatic psychiatrist opening a clinic that treats Alzheimer’s patients by meticulously recreating past decades to match their internal clocks. But the experiment quickly escapes the clinic walls, triggering a pan-European crisis where entire nations hold democratic referendums to choose which era of the past they will retreat into. It is a book that holds up a mirror to our own world, exploring what happens when a civilization faces a deficit of meaning and tries to weaponize nostalgia. (0:00) The Trap of Nostalgia (1:22) The Nonlinear Approach to Storytelling (3:53) Translating the Atmosphere (4:31) The Pandemic of the Past (6:37) Death and the Gardener (9:49) The Translators Calling (11:00) Slowing Down Time (13:14) Storytelling vs Propaganda (15:54) Translating the Atmosphere (18:19) What makes a good life? What has given your life meaning? (20:56) Reflections on God and the Stories His Grandmother Told Him (23:43) The Importance of Hugging, Empathy and Storytelling Episode Website www.creativep rocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

"So synanthropes are animals that have adapted to human-modified environments, and the Greek translation essentially is together with humans, so synanthrope. And they're a fascinating subset of wild animals that they're all around us, but we don't really notice them. And so in this new book, I was excited about writing something that had to do with the natural world. I was excited about writing something that touched on climate change. These are not just insects and earthworms and things like that. These are very large predators that have nevertheless found a way to survive among us. And that in and of itself I think is just an amazing story and what I explore in this book." If you live in a city, you’ve probably had that moment in the middle of the night. You hear a scratching in the walls, or you catch the glowing eyes of a raccoon peering out from a dumpster, and for a second, the concrete world feels a lot less 'controlled' than we like to pretend. We’ve been taught to think of cities as 'biological deserts'—places where nature goes to die. But my guest today, Dan Werb, says that’s a myth we tell ourselves to feel safe. Dan is an award-winning epidemiologist and a musician, and in his new book, Our Wild Familiars , he explores the 'synanthropes'—the wild creatures that aren't our pets, but aren't quite strangers either. They are the coyotes, the bats, and even the octopuses that are learning to use our cities as laboratories for their own rapid evolution. He’s also the author of The Invisible Siege and City of Omens . (0:02) The unexpected biodiversity of urban areas and wild familiars (2:32) Defining synanthropes and the myth of the biological desert (6:04) Why cities are becoming magnets for wildlife and natural biodiversity (14:32) How our discarded garbage acts as a reliable nutrition source (18:01) The raccoon city and highly adaptable urban mesopredators (21:49) Redesigning cities as crucial sites for wildlife conservation and containerisation (26:31) The impact of highways on mountain lion migration in Los Angeles (31:03) The ancestral spiritual bond between early humans, ravens, and foxes (38:24) Facial recognition, grudges, and the intense intelligence of urban crows (42:40) Discovering giant Pacific octopuses living in discarded garbage near Seattle (49:04) How translucent boardwalks helped save baby salmon afraid of the dark (52:42) Building green corridors and ecological stepping stones in the concrete (1:01:07) Cultural shifts in pods of orcas sinking boats off the Iberian coast (1:05:23) Social epidemiology, vulnerable populations, and insights from City of Omens (1:08:29) The epidemiological triangle and the environmental causes of novel viruses (1:16:08) The rhythm shift required to observe wild animals in urban spaces (1:25:26) Why we need more cosmological humility when studying animal biology (1:31:06) The illusion of AI connection and why engaging with nature expands the mind (1:34:46) Memories, Laughter, and Animal Connection Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

Why do we write? Is it to capture a memory before it vanishes or to build a bridge between the person we are and the stories we've been told? In this episode of The Creative Process , we explore the practice of writing as an awakening and tool for discovery with a group of celebrated poets, novelists, musicians and thinkers. We hear from neuroscientist, dancer and author Julia Christensen on how literature inspires transformative aesthetic experiences. Award-winning poet and clinical psychologist Hala Alyan discusses navigating displacement through narrative, while bestselling author Andre Dubus III reflects on the honest labor of the writer and the willingness to fail. Pulitzer Prize-winning poet Jericho Brown shares how the sounds of American vernacular guide his work and Fmr. US Poet Laureate Ada Limón discusses holding hope within frightening thoughts about the future of our planet. NYT Bestseller Aimee Nezhukumatathil speaks on tenderness towards the natural world and naturalist Sy Montgomery shares how animals have been her greatest teachers. The conversation expands with poet Max Stossel on finding humanity in conflict, Tiokasin Ghosthorse on the ancient energy of the earth and Julian Lennon on art as a collective human endeavor. Finally, composer Erland Cooper takes us to the landscape of his youth, where the sound of the sea informed his creative voice. To hear more from each guest, listen to their full interviews . Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

If you live in a city, you’ve probably had that moment in the middle of the night. You hear a scratching in the walls, or you catch the glowing eyes of a raccoon peering out from a dumpster, and for a second, the concrete world feels a lot less 'controlled' than we like to pretend. We’ve been taught to think of cities as 'biological deserts'—places where nature goes to die. But my guest today, Dan Werb, says that’s a myth we tell ourselves to feel safe. Dan is an award-winning epidemiologist and a musician, and in his new book, Our Wild Familiars , he explores the 'synanthropes'—the wild creatures that aren't our pets, but aren't quite strangers either. They are the coyotes, the bats, and even the octopuses that are learning to use our cities as laboratories for their own rapid evolution. He’s also the author of The Invisible Siege and City of Omens . (0:02) The unexpected biodiversity of urban areas and wild familiars (1:18) What is a Synanthrope? (4:15) The Myth of the Biological Desert (8:04) The Ancestral Bond between early humans, ravens, and foxes (9:15) Crows and Grudges (12:42) Stepping Stones in the Concrete (14:20) The Epidemiological Triangle (17:58) The Illusion of AI Connection (19:56) The Museum of Memory Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

Today, we hear from writers Yann Martel, Carl Safina and David George Haskell on the practice of listening to the living world. Tom Chi discusses the dangerous volatility of a one-degree shift. Clayton Aldern explores how climate change alters brain health and behavior, while Ami Vitale,Osprey Orielle Lake and Martín Von Hildebrand remind us of the kinship we share with nature. Fred Pearce discusses 40 years as a journalist reporting on climate from around the world, while Richard Black of the environmental think tank Ember and Paula Pinho, European Commission’s Chief Spokesperson, talk about policy, hope and the radical empathy required to protect the planet for future generations. (0:00) Clayton Page Aldern – Finding awe and beauty in the world (0:40) David George Haskell – On consequences of humans tuning out the sounds of the living world (2:11) Yann Martel – How animals ask us to step out of our humanity (3:12) Carl Safina – The interior lives of non-human animals (5:08) Ami Vitale – Environmental collapse and human conflict (6:37) Martín von Hildebrand – Indigenous views of nature (8:00) Richard Black – Transition to clean energy vs. massive fossil fuel subsidies (10:01) Tom Chi – Climate destabilization (11:07) Paula Pinho – Europe’s vision for energy independence (14:04) Osprey Orielle Lake – Māori concept of "I am the river and the river is me” (16:08) Bill Hare – On limiting global warming to 1.5 degrees (17:19) Fred Pearce – Finding hope in nature’s resilience To hear more from each guest, listen to their full interviews . Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod @creativeprocesspodcast

What if the defining revolution of Earth's history wasn't led by animals or humans, but by flowers? Are we truly individuals, or are our bodies and minds just walking ecosystems? Our guest today is David George Haskell , a biologist who has spent much of his life training himself to see the universal within the infinitesimally small. He's famously sat for a year in a single square meter of Tennessee's forest, a mandala experience that revealed the deep history of the world through a single fallen leaf. He's a two-time finalist for the Pulitzer Prize for his books The Forest Unseen and Sounds Wild and Broken , and he received the John Burroughs Medal for The Songs of Trees . His work often focuses on what he calls the unwaged labor of the natural world, the complex biological communities that sustain our planet without a monetary ledger. And his latest book is How Flowers Made Our World . In it, he argues that we are essentially grass apes dependent on the ancient innovations of flowering plants for two-thirds of our daily calories. (0:00) How Flowers Made Our World The incredible ancient history of flowers on Earth (4:56) Contemplating the Small Expanding our world by restricting our gaze (14:30) The Illusion of Individuality Why atomism is false and interconnectedness is the foundation of life (26:08) We Are Grass Apes The evolutionary origins of humans and our dietary dependence on grass (33:32) Memories of His Childhood in Paris & Wild Orchids (38:55) The Networked Intelligence of Forests How trees communicate and share resources beneath the soil (44:00) The Earth in Full Song Tracing the sonic history of our planet (51:08) The Practice of Listening Why tuning in to the natural world is crucial for our survival (1:01:21) Silence Without Expectation Sitting with nature without demanding progress or enlightenment (1:11:01) Transforming Ourselves Why personal change matters in the fight for the climate (1:15:20) Escaping the Screen Finding real human-to-human connection away from technology (1:16:16) The True Cost of AI The devastating impact of data centers on our fossil fuel consumption (1:23:18) A Sensory Legacy for the Future What we must preserve for the generations not yet born Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

Step into the deep time of the forest floor, where a single fallen leaf contains the history of the world, and invisible fungal networks hum with ancient conversations. Biologist and acclaimed author David George Haskell reveals a staggering truth: we are completely dependent on the botanical world, and our belief in strict human individuality is a biological illusion. Haskell has spent much of his life training himself to see the universal within the infinitesimally small. He's famously sat for a year in a single square meter of Tennessee's forest, a mandala experience that revealed the deep history of the world through a single fallen leaf. He's a two-time finalist for the Pulitzer Prize for his books The Forest Unseen and Sounds Wild and Broken , and he received the John Burroughs Medal for The Songs of Trees . His work often focuses on what he calls the unwaged labor of the natural world, the complex biological communities that sustain our planet without a monetary ledger. And his latest book is How Flowers Made Our World . In it, he argues that we are essentially grass apes dependent on the ancient innovations of flowering plants for two-thirds of our daily calories. (0:00) How Flowers Made Our World (1:33) Networked Connection is the Foundation of Life (2:00) Contemplating the Small (4:07) Consciousness, Intelligence & Memory in the More-Than-Human-World (4:18) We Are Grass Apes (5:41) Memories of His Childhood in Paris & Wild Orchids (6:34) The Networked Intelligence of Forests (7:45) The Earth in Full Song (8:46) The Practice of Listening (10:11) Escaping the Screen: Real Connections in the Classroom (11:35) The True Cost of AI (12:11) Transforming Ourselves (14:23) Silence Without Expectation (15:32) A Sensory Legacy for the Future Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

Why does our economy treat environmental destruction as an inevitable side effect rather than a massive design flaw? How can shifting our focus from polarizing "talkers" to practical "builders" literally save the planet? We are repeatedly told that the climate crisis is too vast and volatile to solve, but what if the true obstacle is simply bad design? Tom Chi is a physicist, designer, inventor, and investor whose work has shaped everything from Google Glass and rapid prototyping at Google X to some of the most ambitious climate technologies being built today. He’s now the founding partner of At One Ventures , where he invests in deep-tech companies focused on a bold goal: a world where humanity is a net positive to nature. Tom’s new book, Climate Capital: Investing in the Tools for a Regenerative Future , reframes economics itself—not as a fixed law, but as a design discipline that can be reimagined to align with the physical realities of our planet. Drawing on science, systems thinking, and lessons from nature, the book offers a grounded, practical framework for moving beyond both climate doom and empty optimism—and toward real, regenerative solutions. Today’s conversation is about what Tom calls the 4Cs: Capital, Compassion, Climate, and Community—but also about agency, responsibility, and what becomes possible when we stop treating the future as something that happens to us and start designing it deliberately. 0:00) Build Integrity: Choosing Builders Over Talkers Why prioritizing those who physically create solutions over those who merely debate them is essential for systemic change (1:21) Overcoming Powerlessness Through Creativity, Critical Thinking, Community Compassion Utilizing a specific framework of portable skills to move from climate anxiety into meaningful, iterative action (2:22) Capital Misallocation: Taxing What We Want to See A critique of current tax structures that burden labor while under-taxing capital and failing to serve societal needs (3:47) The Volatility Gap: Why Average Temperatures Mislead Understanding why increasing climate volatility—rather than just average temperature rise—is the true driver of human distress (6:19) Economics As Design: Redesigning The Global Engine Moving beyond "physics envy" in economics to treat the global market as a discipline that can be redesigned for better outcomes (9:11) Depth Over Breadth: Reforming Education Through Experience (13:30) Local Resilience: How Cities Can Lead The Transformation Practical, block-by-block strategies for urban adaptation, from expanding tree canopies to improving household efficiency (16:33) AI and Robotics in Agriculture (19:12) Human-Centric AI: Flipping The Priority Of Automation (20:18) Thinking In Pictures: A Language Beyond Words Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

“In the book I spend a bunch of time basically teaching skills and teaching frameworks of thinking. Not to indoctrinate, it's not a framework like an ideology where you need to believe exactly these things. This is a lot more about how does one use their minds effectively to solve problems that have been solved before. Of course, I work on things that have to do with investment and climate and the future of the economy and automation. The main things I'm trying to teach in the book are skills around creativity, critical thinking, community compassion and frameworks around how to go and use that on problems that should be relatively portable to a bunch of problems that are meaningful to you. The way that education needs to change is that people need to actively be working on things that truly matter to them so that over time they end up being able to go make that difference.” Tom Chi is a physicist, designer, inventor, and investor whose work has shaped everything from Google Glass and rapid prototyping at Google X to some of the most ambitious climate technologies being built today. He’s now the founding partner of At One Ventures , where he invests in deep-tech companies focused on a bold goal: a world where humanity is a net positive to nature. Tom’s new book, Climate Capital: Investing in the Tools for a Regenerative Future , reframes economics itself—not as a fixed law, but as a design discipline that can be reimagined to align with the physical realities of our planet. Drawing on science, systems thinking, and lessons from nature, the book offers a grounded, practical framework for moving beyond both climate doom and empty optimism—and toward real, regenerative solutions. Today’s conversation is about what Tom calls the 4Cs: Capital, Compassion, Climate, and Community—but also about agency, responsibility, and what becomes possible when we stop treating the future as something that happens to us and start designing it deliberately. (0:00) Overcoming Powerlessness through Creativity, Critical Thinking, Community Compassion Why broad hopelessness about the future is a purposeful tactic to maintain the status quo. (7:16) How average temperature metrics fail to communicate the true danger of extreme climate volatility. (11:54) Economics as Design (17:11) Multi-disciplinary Learning Centered on Real-World Impact (26:12) Local Resilience (31:15) Tax & Capital Misallocation (36:52) Build Integrity (45:32) AI and Robotics in Agriculture (51:08) The First Honeybee Vaccine (56:11) The Entropy Curve of Pollution (1:15:31) Human-Centric AI Flipping the priority of automation to serve the collective good rather than enriching a select few (1:20:59) Thinking in Pictures How learning to communicate and problem-solve without language fueled a career in deep tech invention Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

Have we forgotten how to truly participate in the natural world? What can the ancient practice of shepherding teach us about ecological healing? How does physical labor connect us to the land, memory and belonging? In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu speaks with Helen Whybrow about her book, The Salt Stones: Seasons of a Shepherd’s Life. Besides being a detailed account of the day to day, season by season life on her farm, where she and her family raise sheep, build a broad community, and maintain Knoll Farm, a center for activists, writers, artists and others to share ideas on how to promote healthier and more just ways of living together and in the environment, The Salt Stones is at base about the ways we are losing a sense of belonging, not only with others and with other forms of life on this planet, but also with the cycles of existence, of life and of death. Whybrow shows time and again that it is mostly a matter of developing ways of seeing and noticing what is all around us, and learning about and respecting the ways that generations of people and non-human animals have existed together in sustainable and mutually-dependent ways. Helen Whybrow is a writer, editor and organic farmer whose book about shepherding, land and belonging, The Salt Stones , was longlisted for the National Book Award and chosen as a New Yorker Best Book of 2025. Her other titles include Dead Reckoning (W. W. Norton, 2001) and A Man Apart (Chelsea Green, 2015). She has a master’s in journalism and has taught writing at Middlebury College and the Breadloaf Environmental Writer’s Conference. She and her family farm and steward a refuge for land justice at Knoll Farm in Fayston, Vermont. (0:00) The Salt Stones (2:50) A Lifelong Love of Land and Language (6:50) The Cord: A Story of Lambing and Life (13:40) Literary Influences and Jean Giono (18:15) The Erased Work of Nature (20:30) Radical Intimacy and Participation (23:45) Measuring Diminishment and Listening to Nature (25:15) Lita the Ewe and Complex Ecosystems (29:17) Kulning: The Lost Art of Herding Songs (32:15) Embodied Memory and Physical Labor (37:45) The True Meaning of Belonging (43:30) Radical Hospitality at Noel Farm (46:15) Closing Thoughts on Kinship Episode Website w ww.palumbo-liu. com https://speakingoutofplace.com Bluesky @ palumboliu.bsky.social Instagram @ speaking_out_of_place

"To be in the process of making things, to be in the process of talking to people about what things mean. The creative process is actually, I think, the most meaningful part of life, but it's very hard to measure. When we get shoved towards a world that demands easy measurables, it's very hard to optimize away from the creative process and optimize towards things that are more static." On this episode of The Creative Process, philosopher C. Thi Nguyen joins us to discuss his new book, The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game. He unpacks the profound concept of "value capture"—the moment we stop caring about the rich, subtle experiences of life and start obsessing over simplified, external metrics like grades, likes, and screen time. Beyond the trap of quantification, C. Thi Nguyen explores the liberating power of games and art. We discuss how true play requires us to step lightly between different rule sets, the difference between art and craft, and how reclaiming our creative process might just be the ultimate meaning of life. (0:00) THE TRAP OF VALUE CAPTURE How external metrics and scoring systems hijack our personal values and creativity (7:09) THE LOGIC OF QUANTIFICATION Why simple numbers travel well but strip away vital human context, from screen time to grades (11:58) THE MAGIC CIRCLE OF PLAY Understanding the difference between a gamified life and the true, disattached beauty of struggle (14:57) ART, CRAFT, AND METRICS Why taking the hard way leads to genuine creative expression, and how to spot value-laden systems (19:34) THE POLITICS OF MEASUREMENT Questioning the assumption that complex human traits, like IQ or consciousness, can be quantified on a single scale (21:31) THE SPIRIT OF PLAY Using constraints to boost collaborative storytelling and learning to step lightly between different rule worlds Episode Website www.creativepr ocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

We live in a world obsessed with tracking. From our sleep scores to our social media engagement, invisible systems constantly quantify our worth. But when we replace our deepest values with these thin, easily measurable numbers, we lose a part of our humanity. It is time to step outside the magic circle of optimization and reclaim the unstructured joy of being alive. C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher whose work gets to the heart of the invisible structures that define modern life. He first established himself as a food writer, exploring the sensory world, before turning his intellectual gaze toward the philosophy of games and agency. He’s the author of Games: Agency As Art . His new book is The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game . He argues that when we simplify our values for the sake of a leaderboard, something inside the human spirit begins to die. In it, he explores a concept called "value capture"—the moment we stop caring about the experience and start obsessing over the metric. He joins me now to discuss how we can lead a playful, spontaneous life without getting lost in the scoring systems of the 21st century. (0:00) THE MEANING OF LIFE IS THE CREATIVE PROCESS Why the most valuable parts of life are impossible to measure (6:46) VALUE CAPTURE DEFINED How external metrics and institutional scoring systems take over our personal values (11:38) THE METRICS WE LIVE BY The invisible toll of screen time, credit scores, and daily optimization (19:44) THE LOGIC OF QUANTIFICATION Why simple numbers travel well but strip away vital human context (24:13) THE MAGIC CIRCLE OF PLAY Understanding the difference between a gamified life and the true beauty of struggle (31:56) ART AS A GAME How taking the hard way and avoiding efficiency leads to genuine creative expression (38:48) THE POLITICS OF TECHNOLOGY Why tools and systems like factories and databases are never truly value-neutral (44:23) AI AND HUMAN CREATIVITY Navigating the tension between automated efficiency and expressive human art (50:44) THE POLITICS OF IQ Questioning the assumption that complex human traits can be measured on a single scale (1:01:12) NARRATIVE SCAFFOLDING How structured constraints in role-playing games can actually boost collaborative storytelling (1:10:00) THE SPIRIT OF PLAY Stepping lightly between different rule worlds and reclaiming our agency Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod @creativeprocesspodcast

"The thing that puzzled him was why people don't agree to be fully expressed while they're alive. Why does it only happen in their last moment? Why wouldn't you live being fully expressed?" My guest today is AL Kennedy . She is one of Britain’s most acclaimed and versatile literary voices, a writer who can inhabit the internal life of a soldier in a POW camp, as she did in her Costa Book Award-winning novel Day , as easily as she can navigate the "professional lying" of a modern civil servant. Her latest novel, Alive in the Merciful Country , takes place during the 2020 lockdown. It tells the story of a primary school teacher who receives a confession from an undercover police officer who infiltrated her life decades earlier. It’s a provocative investigation into state power, the "Spy Cops" scandal and the search for mercy in an age of surveillance. It’s a book about the breakdown of trust. We talk about her life, her activism, and why she believes fiction is the only way to tell the truth when the facts are forbidden and how she balances the truth of her novels with the relief of stand-up comedy. (0:00) Finding Your Voice On the Alfred Wolfsohn voice method and the power of being fully expressed (2:30) Reading from Alive in the Merciful Country Kennedy shares a passage from her latest novel, exploring hope and resilience in dark times. (4:43) The Myth of Shrinking Attention Spans Challenging the narrative that modern audiences cannot focus, and the importance of engaging storytelling. (6:22) Education and the Foundation of Democracy The dangers of dismantling education and how critical thinking protects us from fascism. (10:26) The Spy Cop Scandal and State Surveillance Unpacking the reality of undercover police infiltrating peaceful protests and intimate lives. (13:59) Lockdown: A Global Pause and the Inrush of Empathy The fleeting moment of unified humanity during the pandemic and how it was ultimately betrayed. (17:34) Writing Without Theft: The Ethics of Character Creation Kennedy explains her imaginative process and why she refuses to steal details from real people's lives. (28:16) AI, Digital Slop, and the Loss of Trust Reflections on artificial intelligence as an unstable plagiarism machine and its impact on truth. (30:03) Nature, Spirituality, and the Merciful Country Finding healing in the natural world and navigating the future with love and awareness. Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

What happens when the state infiltrates your most intimate relationships? How do we protect the innocence and imagination of children in an increasingly authoritarian world? "If you have love, eventually you're going to win. It's not that people aren't going to die. It's not terrible things aren't going to happen. But if you stay with that and you stay centered in that, you'll get through and you will not have turned into a monster in order to overcome monsters.” My guest today is AL Kennedy . She is one of Britain’s most acclaimed and versatile literary voices, a writer who can inhabit the internal life of a soldier in a POW camp, as she did in her Costa Book Award-winning novel Day , as easily as she can navigate the "professional lying" of a modern civil servant. Her latest novel, Alive in the Merciful Country , takes place during the 2020 lockdown. It tells the story of a primary school teacher who receives a confession from an undercover police officer who infiltrated her life decades earlier. It’s a provocative investigation into state power, the "Spy Cops" scandal and the search for mercy in an age of surveillance. It’s a book about the breakdown of trust. We talk about her life, her activism, and why she believes fiction is the only way to tell the truth when the facts are forbidden and how she balances the truth of her novels with the relief of stand-up comedy. (0:00) Finding Your Voice On the Alfred Wolfsohn voice method and the power of being fully expressed (2:17) Education and the Foundation of Democracy The dangers of dismantling education and how critical thinking protects us from fascism. (5:14) The Myth of Shrinking Attention Spans Challenging the narrative that modern audiences cannot focus, and the importance of engaging storytelling. (8:23) Reading from Alive in the Merciful Country Kennedy shares a passage from her latest novel, exploring hope and resilience in dark times. (17:45) The Spy Cop Scandal and State Surveillance Unpacking the reality of undercover police infiltrating peaceful protests and intimate lives. (22:07) AI, Digital Slop, and the Loss of Trust Reflections on artificial intelligence as an unstable plagiarism machine and its impact on truth. (28:29) The Power of the Powerless: Radical Whimsy How absurdity, humor, and inflatable costumes can disrupt authoritarian mindsets and potential violence. (33:13) Lockdown: A Global Pause and the Inrush of Empathy The fleeting moment of unified humanity during the pandemic and how it was ultimately betrayed. (42:53) Writing Without Theft: The Ethics of Character Creation Kennedy explains her imaginative process and why she refuses to steal details from real people's lives. (1:29:40) Nature, Spirituality, and the Merciful Country Finding healing in the natural world and navigating the future with love and awareness. Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod IG @creativeprocesspodcast

“Grief is a particular kind of unrequited love. It wasn't unrequited in the past. Usually, we think of unrequited love as you never got to do it, you never had it for yourself. But, in fact, there can be requited love, which is then unrequited love in the paroxysms of grief.” Today, we are honored to welcome a writer whose work has long explored the intimate landscapes of the mind, memory and the heart. Siri Hustvedt ’s writing moves between the personal and the philosophical, the literary and the deeply human. Her work bridges collections of essays, non-fiction, poetry, and seven novels, including the international bestsellers What I Loved and The Summer Without Men . Recipient of the Princess of Asturias Award for Literature and the Gabarron Prize for Thought, her work has been translated into over thirty languages. Her new memoir, Ghost Stories , is a reflection on forty-three years shared with her late husband, the writer and filmmaker Paul Auster . In its pages, we encounter not only love and loss, but the quiet persistence of presence, memory, and language itself. (0:00) “We were hugely important to the drama of becoming in our own lives” (2:04) Grief as Unrequited Love Siri explores the emotional reality of living without Paul Auster, noting that grief occurs because love does not stop when a person dies. (3:19) The Shared Space of a 43-year Marriage (4:36) Reading from Ghost Stories Siri reads the opening passage of her memoir, detailing how the loss of her husband deranged her sense of time and bodily rhythms. (7:02) How Loss Changes Our Sense of Time (11:24) How Powerful Emotions and a Person's Life Can Play a Role in Illness (13:04) Believing in a Reality that Transcends the Individual (20:06) Physical Love in Marriage On the importance of physical intimacy in long-term marriages, a reality often left out of grief memoirs. Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

“Grief happens because you don't stop loving the person who died. The person doesn't exist in your reality anymore. The everyday is not colored and shaped by this other human being, but you don't stop loving the person. So grief is a particular kind of unrequited love. And probably without that dynamic relationship with this person, I would be someone else. And he would've been someone else. I mean, Paul died before me. But we were, I think, hugely important to the drama of becoming in our own lives.” Today, we are honored to welcome a writer whose work has long explored the intimate landscapes of the mind, memory and the heart. Siri Hustvedt ’s writing moves between the personal and the philosophical, the literary and the deeply human. Her work bridges collections of essays, non-fiction, poetry, and seven novels, including the international bestsellers What I Loved and The Summer Without Men . Recipient of the Princess of Asturias Award for Literature and the Gabarron Prize for Thought, her work has been translated into over thirty languages. Her new memoir, Ghost Stories , is a reflection on forty-three years shared with her late husband, the writer and filmmaker Paul Auster . In its pages, we encounter not only love and loss, but the quiet persistence of presence, memory, and language itself. (0:00) Grief as Unrequited Love Siri explores the emotional reality of living without Paul Auster, noting that grief occurs because love does not stop when a person dies. (4:00) Facing Death with Courage The importance of not hiding from mortality and how discussing end-of-life wishes offered a necessary perspective. (12:37) Reading from Ghost Stories Siri reads the opening passage of her memoir, detailing how the loss of her husband deranged her sense of time and bodily rhythms. (18:41) The Phantom Limb: ” The beloved is taken away and it feels as if you're amputated or gutted.” (21:50) Grandfather, Father and Son: Generational Traumas Behind Paul Auster's Writing (24:11) How Powerful Emotions and a Person's Life Can Play a Role in Illness (30:09) Feeding the Earth "Paul very pointedly told me that he wanted to be buried in the Jewish mode. And the phrase he used was, “I want my body to feed the earth.” (44:23) Physical Love in Marriage On the importance of physical intimacy in long-term marriages, a reality often left out of grief memoirs. (54:00) The Philosophy of the Between How relational existence is foundational to life. (1:00:16) The Hubris of Controlling Nature (1:12:00) The Dark History of Statistics (1:32:12) The Art of Learning vs. AI and Automated Outcomes “I think we have to ask ourselves, what is education? What do we want from it? How do we want people to learn? Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast

Can curiosity and empathy be taught? How can we expand our sense of solidarity through stories? In this episode, we explore the internal dialogues of artists, actors and writers to ask what it means to step into someone else's shoes. (0:00) Novelist Jim Shepard discusses Literature as a Tool for Emotional Education and Exploring History (2:05) Tony Award-winning Actor Neil Patrick Harris on Being Moved by Theater and its Ability to Bridge Worlds (3:55) Novelist Katie Kitamura on How a Book is Made in Collaboration with the Reader (5:00) Screenwriter, Playwright Laura Eason on Inhabiting the Hearts of Characters Different from Ourselves (6:03) Academy Award-winning Director Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy on the Art of Visual Storytelling (6:37) Cinematographer, Director Benoit Delhomme on the Freedom of Handheld Cinematography (7:19) Author Etgar Keret on Looking for Humanity through Shared Intention (8:18) Viet Thanh Nguyen – Opposing Power through Expansive Solidarity (9:27) Adam Moss – Author, Fmr. Editor New York magazine on “The Work of Art” (10:29) John Patrick Shanley – Tony & Academy Award-winning Writer, Director on Finding Value in Ordinary Experiences and the Creative Power of Daydreaming (11:56) Pulitzer Prize-winning Journalist Nicholas Kristof on Why Individual Stories are Necessary to Generate Connection To hear more from each guest, listen to their full interviews . Episode Website www.creativeprocess.info/pod Instagram: @creativeprocesspodcast