Hunters and Unicorns

What happens when you leave one of the best sales playbook machines in the world to build your own? In this episode of Hunters and Unicorns, Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne sit down with Stephen Macfarlane, Global Head of Sales at Pigment, to unpack the reality versus the expectations of leaving MongoDB after nine and a half years to take the top sales seat at a fast-growing startup. Stephen explains why the secret behind MongoDB was never a playbook but a set of standards, and how he brought that thinking to Pigment: from the two questions he asks every hire six months in, to the provocative hypotheses he put to the founders, bootcamps, leader training, and the first key hires he brought with him. The conversation also covers why it's lonely at the top, why commitment matters more than consensus, how to join an organization without being resented, the art of "releasing the work" at the right pace, and why Pigment is replacing incumbents in a market that was ready to be disrupted. In this episode: • Reality vs. expectations: from MongoDB to a startup head of sales seat • "What were you oversold on, and what were you undersold on?" • Why it's lonely at the top • A set of standards, not a playbook • Testing provocative hypotheses with the founders • Make the main thing the main thing • Bootcamps, leader training, and building repeatability • The first key hires to bring with you • Commitment over consensus • Releasing the work at the right pace • How to enter an organization without being resented • Finding champions at every level of the business • What to look for in your next role: leaders, product, and market • Pigment's mission and the AI-first EPM opportunity About Stephen Macfarlane Stephen Macfarlane is Global Head of Sales at Pigment, the AI-first planning and performance management platform. Before joining Pigment, he spent nine and a half years in sales leadership at MongoDB, one of the most respected go to market organizations in software. About Our Sponsor: Big thanks to Aurasell for sponsoring this episode. Aurasell is an AI-native GTM platform designed to intelligently automate every aspect of the sales cycle from prospecting and deal management to forecasting and coaching. Subscribe to Hunters and Unicorns for more conversations with the leaders building, scaling, and transforming high-growth technology companies. #HuntersAndUnicorns #StephenMacfarlane #Pigment #MongoDB #SalesLeadership #GTM #RevenueLeadership #SalesEnablement #Startups #EPM #B2BSales #Leadership Timestamps: 0:00 – Trailer 1:14 – Welcome & Introduction 1:34 – From MongoDB to Global Head of Sales at Pigment 2:41 – The Two Questions: Oversold vs. Undersold 3:42 – It's Lonely at the Top 5:36 – Big Company to Startup: A Set of Standards, Not a Playbook 7:33 – The State of Play When Stephen Walked In 9:05 – Testing Provocative Hypotheses With the Founders 10:51 – Driving Change Through Trust 13:02 – What Transfers From MongoDB 15:13 – Make the Main Thing the Main Thing 17:14 – From Frantic Energy to Focused Energy 18:46 – Bootcamps, Leader Training & Repeatability 21:18 – The First Key Hires 23:52 – Commitment Over Consensus 25:24 – Harder Than Expected: Building the Tracks 27:37 – Why Founder Alignment Matters 29:48 – Releasing the Work at the Right Pace 31:39 – Joining Without Being Resented 34:00 – Finding Your Champions 35:05 – Stacking Wins Without Declaring Victory 36:25 – Founder Momentum & Staying Power 37:32 – Three Things to Look for in Your Next Role 39:29 – The Hardest Part: Coming From Outside the Market 41:30 – What Stephen Learned About Himself 43:05 – Pigment's Mission & the AI-First EPM Opportunity 45:00 – Replacing Incumbents: What's Next for Pigment 46:18 – What Was Stephen Oversold and Undersold On? 48:36 – Closing

What happens to a sales team built on inbound when the inbound slows down? In this episode of Hunters and Unicorns, Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne sit down with Mark Ebert, SVP of Revenue at Profound, to unpack how you build a world class sales organization in the middle of the AI gold rush one that is ready for the hard times before they arrive. Profound went from Mark and five reps in a room in Union Square to well over 50 ICs in about a year, mostly on the back of inbound demand. Mark explains why that is exactly the moment to start building the prospecting muscle, how he gets the whole org from himself on down to own its pipeline number, and why he hires people who want to learn rather than people chasing the hype. The conversation also gets personal: the advice that "no one's looking out for you in your personal life," why being on 24/7 is a myth, how he stays present for his family, and the "make the invisible visible" culture at Profound that changed the way he leads including why your reps may be afraid to tell you what's broken. In this episode: • Why strong inbound can hide a future pipeline problem • Building a prospecting culture from the top down call blitzes, competitions and no free passes • Hiring for learners: "What have you not mastered that you want to master here?" • Lessons from eight years building and leading at 6sense • Development plans and career paths in a hypergrowth sales org • "No one's looking out for you" work-life balance as a sales leader • Why being on 24/7 is a myth, and how to be present at home • MTIV: Make the Invisible Visible and why acting like everything's fine is the worst thing a leader can do • How to get honest feedback from reps who are afraid to give it • Profound's mission and the AEO opportunity About Mark Ebert Mark Ebert is SVP of Revenue at Profound, the AEO platform that helps brands understand how AI talks about their products and services. He started his career as a BDR, grew into complex enterprise selling, and spent around eight years building and leading the sales organization at 6sense before joining Profound. About Our Sponsor: Big thanks to Aurasell for sponsoring this episode. Aurasell is an AI-native GTM platform designed to intelligently automate every aspect of the sales cycle from prospecting and deal management to forecasting and coaching. Subscribe to Hunters and Unicorns for more conversations with the leaders building, scaling, and transforming high-growth technology companies. #HuntersAndUnicorns #MarkEbert #Profound #SalesLeadership #GTM #RevenueLeadership #PipelineGeneration #SalesCulture #AEO #AI #B2BSales #Leadership Timestamps: 0:00 – Trailer 1:12 – Welcome & Introduction 1:54 – Building a Sales Org That Lasts Beyond the Good Days 3:51 – Staying Power in the AI Gold Rush 6:48 – Why the Foundations Matter: Hiring People Who Want to Learn 8:39 – Preparing for the Day Inbound Slows Down 11:49 – Everyone Owns the Pipeline Number 14:04 – Call Blitzes & Making Prospecting Fun 15:41 – Tuning Out the Noise & Finishing the Job 18:41 – Development Plans & Career Paths 20:53 – Who Is Mark Outside of Work? 23:06 – "No One's Looking Out for You" — Work-Life Balance 25:43 – The Myth of Being On 24/7 27:35 – Being Present With Your Family 30:33 – Tough Times & Making the Invisible Visible 34:12 – Turning MTIV Into a Culture, Not a Complaint Box 35:40 – Scaling From 5 Reps to 50+ ICs 37:00 – Why Your Reps Are Afraid to Tell You What's Broken 41:18 – Making Decisions Not Everyone Will Like 43:07 – Showing Up for Your Team on a Rocket Ship 44:38 – Profound's Mission & the AEO Opportunity 47:23 – Closing

On this episode of Hunters and Unicorns, hosts Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne sit down with Parm Uppal, Chief Revenue Officer at Chainguard, to unpack what it actually takes to become a "first-pick" CRO, the person VCs and founders call first when they need world-class go-to-market leadership. Parm shares hard-won lessons from his career at AppDynamics, DataRobot, Benchling, Luminary, and now Chainguard, covering: Why "develop down" beats "manage up" and how strong foundations make everything else easier Building internal champions and followship the right way The 3-stage framework for scaling revenue teams: product-market fit → repeatability → scale The "elephant, deer, and rabbits" method for structuring sales territories How his personal CRO scorecard cuts through inflated pipeline data in board meetings Mistakes made chasing hype cycles and picking startups at the wrong stage Why coachability and character are the hardest things to interview for Building a genuine CFO-CRO partnership and a common language with the board Why open-source software security is the next seismic shift as AI coding tools accelerate If you're a sales leader, aspiring CRO, or founder building your go-to-market org, this conversation is a masterclass in leadership, hiring, and scaling with intention. This episode is sponsored by Aurasell—intelligently automate every aspect of your sales cycle with the first AI-native, full-stack GTM platform. 🔔 Subscribe for more conversations with top revenue leaders and operators. #SalesLeadership #CRO #GoToMarket #B2BSales #StartupGrowth #RevenueLeadership #SalesStrategy #Chainguard #VentureCapital #TechSales #Podcast #Entrepreneurship #SaaS #OpenSourceSecurity #Leadership Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 1:25 — Introduction & Guest Overview 2:07 — What Makes You a "First-Pick" CRO 3:52 — Authenticity, Internal Champions, and Developing Talent 12:29 — The Elephant, Deer, and Rabbits Framework 17:02 — Your Key Priorities in the First 90 Days 22:01 — Pain Now vs. Pain Later 25:08 — Hiring for Coachability and Character 29:47 — Balancing Managing Up and Managing Down 31:20 — Learning From Your Biggest Mistakes at DataRobot 34:47 — Why You Built Your Own CRO Scorecard 43:52 — Building Relationships With VCs and Boards 47:56 — What Makes Someone a True Internal Champion 51:36 — "Develop Down": The Philosophy Behind Everything 52:25 — Why You Left Benchling for Chainguard 59:59 — Closing & Final Thoughts

What if the traditional path to becoming a CRO isn't the only path? In this episode of Hunters and Unicorns, Ollie Kuehne and Simon Kouttis sit down with Ozge Tuncel Ozcan, Chief Revenue Officer at Forter, to explore her unconventional journey from engineering and customer success to leading an entire revenue organization. Ozge shares why revenue is much more than bookings and pipeline, how her experience across customer success, professional services, sales development, and post-sales shaped her leadership, and why listening to customers can become a CRO's greatest advantage. The conversation also explores customer retention, product feedback, GTM strategy, AI, and why companies need to connect innovation, sales, and customer success instead of treating them as separate functions. In this episode: • Ozge's unconventional journey to CRO • Why customer understanding is at the heart of revenue • How customer success shaped her sales leadership • Why CROs need to think beyond bookings and pipeline • Connecting product, sales, and customer success • Using customer feedback to drive innovation • Building a more cohesive GTM organization • Why listening may be the most underrated leadership skill About Our Sponsor: Big thanks to Aurasell for sponsoring this episode. Aurasell is an AI-native GTM platform designed to intelligently automate every aspect of the sales cycle from prospecting and deal management to forecasting and coaching. Subscribe to Hunters and Unicorns for more conversations with the leaders building, scaling, and transforming high-growth technology companies. #HuntersAndUnicorns #OzgeTuncelOzcan #Forter #CRO #SalesLeadership #GTM #RevenueLeadership #CustomerSuccess #B2BSales #gtmstrategy Timestamps: 00:00 Trailer 02:58 What Defines you as a CRO? 04:49 The Power of Listening 07:51 From Engineer to CRO 09:17 From MBA to McKinsey 12:00 The MongoDB Opportunity 18:00 Building a Customer-First GTM 24:00 Why Customer Success Matters 31:59 The Next Generation CRO 34:08 The Future of AI Adoption 36:20 How to Evaluate a Company 41:28 Innovation Meets GTM 45:01 Building a World-Class GTM Team 51:34 The Future of AI Commerce 54:12 Building Careers, Not Jobs 56:08 The New Path to CRO

What makes a senior GTM leader leave a successful career behind and bet on a company taking on one of the biggest challenges in AI? In this episode of Hunters and Unicorns, hosts Ollie Kuehne and Simon Kouttis sit down with Alex Varel, EVP of GTM at Cerebras, to unpack the decision that brought him into the world of AI infrastructure. Alex shares what he saw in Cerebras, why the demand for AI compute convinced him, and what he learned from moving between companies like MongoDB and Cerebras. In this episode: • Why Alex chose Cerebras over other opportunities • What makes Cerebras' AI infrastructure different • Taking on established players like NVIDIA • The importance of product differentiation in GTM • What Alex saw when he first met Cerebras' leadership • Why challenging markets attract great sales leaders • The mindset behind building and scaling a GTM organization A conversation about AI, enterprise sales, GTM leadership, career decisions, and what it takes to bet on a massive opportunity before everyone else sees it. Subscribe to Hunters and Unicorns for more conversations with the leaders building the future of technology and sales. About Our Sponsor: Big thanks to Aurasell for sponsoring this episode. Aurasell is an AI-native GTM platform designed to intelligently automate every aspect of the sales cycle—from prospecting and deal management to forecasting and coaching. Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 1:45 — Welcome & Introduction 4:17 — How Did You Know Cerebras Was the Right Bet? 8:46 — How Cerebras Came to His Attention 11:37 — Meeting Andrew Feldman & the Taco Story 17:10 — Getting Up to Speed on a Technical Product 20:14 — Tackling a Highly Technical Sale 22:32 — Shifting From Feature Selling to Value Selling 26:35 — Growth & Scale — What It Looks Like Now 27:50 — How He Sees the Market Changing in 3 to 5 Years 32:03 — How He's Had to Change as a Leader 34:20 — Hanging Back & Proving Himself First 37:25 — What From the Old Playbook Transferred 43:34 — The No BS Culture at Cerebras 48:08 — Why You Don't Need a Large Sales Team 49:31 — European Expansion 51:42 — Advice for Anyone Making the Hardware Leap 54:30 — How to Assess a Comp Plan 56:47 — Imposter Syndrome at Cerebras 57:53 — Closing

What happens when you're winning every deal—but your team is quietly reaching its breaking point? For Zach Sikora, CRO at Endor Labs, one of the biggest leadership lessons of his career came when he realized that driving results wasn't enough. His team was succeeding, but they were also fatigued and he risked creating a culture built around compliance rather than commitment. In this episode of Hunters and Unicorns, Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne sit down with Zack to explore his journey from EMC and AppDynamics to People.ai and now Endor Labs, and the leadership lessons he learned along the way. Zack shares the moment his COO warned him that he might have a “mutiny” on his hands, why accountability has to come with empathy, and how explaining the “why,” using data, humanizing leadership, and giving people a voice transformed the way his team operated. The conversation also explores building a modern GTM organization, the role of RevOps and enablement, AI and application security, Endor Labs' growth journey, and why developing leaders is just as important as hiring more sales reps. In this episode: • The leadership mistake that nearly cost Zack his team's commitment • Why winning doesn't mean your leadership approach is working • The difference between compliance and commitment • How to balance accountability with empathy • Why leaders need to explain the “why” behind every decision • How data can help bring sales teams along with the strategy • Why RevOps and enablement should come before scaling headcount • Building a culture focused on leadership development • How AI is changing application security and software development • Endor Labs' growth strategy and 100% channel approach • What it really means to build a high-performing GTM organization About Zack Sikora Zack Sikora is Chief Revenue Officer at Endor Labs, with leadership experience at EMC, AppDynamics, People.ai, and Endor Labs. His experience spans high-growth technology, enterprise sales, go-to-market strategy, and revenue leadership, with a strong focus on building teams and developing leaders. About Our Sponsor: Big thanks to Aurasell for sponsoring this episode. Aurasell is an AI-native GTM platform designed to intelligently automate every aspect of the sales cycle from prospecting and deal management to forecasting and coaching. Subscribe to Hunters and Unicorns for conversations with the leaders building, scaling, and transforming high-growth technology companies. #HuntersAndUnicorns #ZachSkora #EndorLabs #SalesLeadership #GTM #RevenueLeadership #SalesManagement #SalesStrategy #AI #Cybersecurity #B2BSales #leadership Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 1:28 — Welcome & Introduction 2:43 — When It Started to Click as a Leader 4:18 — Accountability With Empathy — The Turning Point 5:48 — How He Actually Implemented Change 7:47 — From Compliance to Commitment 8:31 — Leaning on Mentors Through the Hard Moments 9:09 — The App Dynamics Story — A Baptism of Fire 12:34 — What Made Him Choose App Dynamics Over MongoDB & Medallia 14:52 — Why Dolly Said He Wasn't Ready 16:05 — The Rise to Third Line — Zigs, Zags & Getting Passed Over 18:11 — How to Systematically Build a Team From Scratch 20:21 — The Power of Activity Data & Leading Indicators 22:55 — When Did He Know He Wanted to Be a CRO? 25:08 — Was He Always Chasing the Title? 28:50 — Playbook First, Domain Second 32:18 — How Important Is Founder Support for Your Strategy? 33:39 — The Critical Criteria When Assessing a CRO Opportunity 35:24 — How to Assess a Founder Before You're In 38:03 — What Drew Him to Endor Labs 40:07 — The Four Problems Endor Is Built to Solve 43:49 — How Endor Stands Up Against the Big Players 46:10 — What's Stopping a Foundational Model From Doing This? 48:04 — Where Endor Is on the Journey & What's Next 49:44 — Why Endor Is a Great Place for Sales Leaders Right Now 51:18 — Closing

What happens when one of the most intense, competitive leaders in software sales finally decides to slow down? For Alex Patman, former CRO at Drata, stepping away from the game wasn't about losing his edge—it was about gaining perspective. In this episode of Hunters and Unicorns, Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne sit down with Alex to unpack his journey from Fuze and Okta to becoming CRO at Drata, the mindset that drove his rapid rise through the software industry, and the leadership principles behind his success. Alex opens up about the tragic loss of his brother, why he made the decision to take time away from work, and how stepping back has changed his perspective on family, health, leadership, and his next professional mission. The conversation also explores the rapidly changing AI era, the pressures of modern sales leadership, and what it really takes to build and lead high-performing go-to-market teams. From increasing intensity and narrowing the focus to raising standards and leading from the front, Alex shares the playbook, principles, and competitive mindset that have shaped his career. In this episode: • Alex's journey from Fuze and Okta to CRO at Drata • Why pressure is a privilege—and the mindset of a “90-day contract” • How tragedy and time away from work changed his perspective • The importance of family, health, and mental resilience • Why curiosity and competitiveness can accelerate a career • Alex's perspective on the AI era and the future of software sales • The leadership principles behind high-performing GTM organizations • Why leaders need to increase intensity, narrow the focus, and raise standards • The importance of trust, communication, humility, and collective responsibility • How taking a step back can become the slingshot for the next chapter About Alex Patman Alex Patman is a former CRO at Drata and an experienced go-to-market leader who has built his career across high-growth technology companies including Fuze, Okta, and Drata. Known for his intensity, curiosity, competitiveness, and pace-setting leadership style, Alex has become one of the most prominent emerging leaders in software sales. Subscribe to Hunters and Unicorns for conversations with the leaders building, scaling, and transforming high-growth technology companies. About Our Sponsor: Big thanks to Aurasell for sponsoring this episode. Aurasell is an AI-native GTM platform designed to intelligently automate every aspect of the sales cycle—from prospecting and deal management to forecasting and coaching. #HuntersAndUnicorns #AlexPatman #Drata #SalesLeadership #GTM #SoftwareSales #AI #SalesStrategy #RevenueLeadership #B2BSales #ArtificialIntelligence #sales Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 1:17 — Welcome & Introduction 2:50 — Why Alex Is Taking Time Off 6:03 — Filling the Void & Keeping the Mind Active 10:47 — Why It's Important to Sit Through This 15:30 — Evaluating the Hardware Space 19:09 — Separating Signal From Hype in AI 21:19 — What He Looks for in a Founder 26:33 — How to Assess Founder GTM Commitment 30:04 — Career Arc — Fuse to Octa to Drata 37:33 — What Set Him Apart at Octa 41:37 — When Adam Arens Took Notice 44:17 — Managing Impatience & Over-Ambition 51:05 — Transitioning Into the CRO Seat 53:35 — Is It a Lonely Seat? 56:48 — Work-Life Balance as CRO 1:01:34 — What He Loves Most About the Game 1:02:54 — Guiding Principles & Leadership Style 1:05:41 — Closing

What does it take to go from a Manager to a CEO—and become the kind of leader who helps others surpass you? In this episode of Hunters and Unicorns, Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne sit down with Christina Brady, CEO and Co-Founder of Luster, to explore her journey from account executive to revenue leader, founder, and CEO. Christina shares how her passion for communication, leadership, and sales enablement shaped her career, why she believes leaders should be the “soil” that helps their people grow, and how AI can make sales teams better without replacing the human element. The conversation explores predictive enablement, emotional intelligence, sales performance, and why the future of AI in sales is about giving people better data, training, and feedback—not removing them from the process. In this episode: • Christina’s journey from account executive to CEO and founder • Why great leaders should help their people surpass them • How communication can transform sales performance • The role of emotional intelligence in sales • Why traditional sales training often fails • How AI can make salespeople better—not replace them • The future of predictive sales enablement • Why enablement should become a revenue center, not a cost center • How AI can identify and correct bad sales behavior before it happens • What the future of sales training and enablement looks like About Christina Brady Christina Brady is the CEO and Co-Founder of Luster, a company focused on transforming sales enablement through AI, predictive insights, training, and performance improvement. She has spent more than 20 years in go-to-market leadership, including roles across sales, enablement, customer success, and revenue leadership. Subscribe to Hunters and Unicorns for conversations with the leaders building, scaling, and transforming high-growth technology companies. #HuntersAndUnicorns #ChristinaBrady #Luster #SalesEnablement #SalesLeadership #AIinSales #SalesTraining #RevenueLeadership #GTM #B2BSales #artificialintelligence Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 2:07 — How Christina Became CEO & Co-Founder 6:32 — From Concept to Product 8:36 — Why This Problem Was Personal 11:11 — The Highs & Lows of the Journey 13:55 — Sales Methodology & Getting Certified 16:21 — From Terrible Manager to CRO 20:25 — Breaking Down Communication Barriers 25:46 — Reinforcement & Doing the Work 31:00 — Controlling Emotion in the Moment 35:04 — Radical Candor & Earning the Right 38:32 — The Psychology Behind It All 42:01 — Can Emotional Intelligence Be Learned? 44:38 — Where Luster Is Today 51:57 — Measurable Impact & Real Customer Results 54:37 — Identifying & Cloning Top Performers 57:37 — The Human Element in AI Enablement 59:33 — The Next Five Years for Luster 1:02:34 — Closing

What separates a productive sales team from one buried in operational work? For Srinivas Bandi, it comes down to eliminating the endless toil that keeps sellers away from actually selling. In this episode of Hunters and Unicorns, Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne sit down with Srinivas Bandi, Co-Founder and CTO of Aurasell, to explore how AI is reshaping the modern go-to-market stack and changing how sales teams work. They discuss why most sellers spend less than 25% of their time selling, how AI agents can automate everything from prospecting to forecasting, and why the future of sales is about letting humans focus on high-value conversations. The conversation also explores AI-native software, data ownership, the fragmentation of today’s GTM stack, and why companies need to focus on business outcomes rather than simply adding more tools. In this episode: • Why sales reps spend less than 25% of their time selling • How AI can move selling time from 25% to 75% • Why the future of sales is AI agents + human conversations • The problem with fragmented GTM stacks and 50+ tools • Why high-fidelity data is becoming a competitive advantage • How AI is changing product development and customer success • Why speed and execution are becoming critical moats • What the future of the GTM stack could look like About Srinivas Bandi Srinivas Bandi is the Co-Founder and CTO of Aurasell, with previous leadership experience at VMware, Nutanix, and Harness. He has spent his career building enterprise technology and scaling products across cloud, infrastructure, and AI. Subscribe to Hunters and Unicorns for conversations with the leaders building, scaling, and transforming high-growth technology companies. About Our Sponsor: Big thanks to Aurasell for sponsoring this episode. Aurasell is an AI-native GTM platform that replaces the 15+ disconnected tools your sales team is juggling — prospecting, deal management, forecasting, and coaching all in one place. Available as a layer on your existing Salesforce or HubSpot, or as a standalone AI-native CRM. https://www.aurasell.ai/ #HuntersAndUnicorns #SrinivasBandi #Aurasell #SalesAI #AIAgents #GTM #B2BSales #SalesLeadership #RevOps #RevenueGrowth #ArtificialIntelligence Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 1:09 — Welcome & Introduction 2:17 — Career — VMware to Nutanix to Harness 6:02 — Identifying a Company's Real Moat 9:09 — Creating Real Differentiation in a Crowded Space 15:38 — What Drew Him to Solving This Problem 20:28 — Building for the Future With Aurasell 26:33 — The Nutanix Product & Its Impact 30:41 — Balancing Customer Feedback With Product Vision 35:14 — Staying Ahead When Innovation Moves Fast 38:51 — Will the Founder Profile Change in the AI Era 41:34 — The Future GTM Stack 44:33 — Will AI Make the Market Too Noisy 47:35 — How the Seller Profile Will Change With AI 49:31 — Could Salespeople Ever Be Fully Replaced 52:02 — Aurasell's Impact on Sales Rep Productivity 56:04 — Is Customer Success Being Replaced by AI 58:02 — Closing

What separates a good partner strategy from a truly transformational one? For Akshay Rao and Tom Henderson, it comes down to one thing: turning partner strategy into real field execution. In this episode of Hunters and Unicorns, Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne sit down with the co-founders of a stealth startup and two of the most experienced leaders in partner and channel alliances, with experience at companies including Wiz, Zscaler, AppDynamics, and Skytap. They break down why companies struggle to capture their Partner Total Addressable Market (PTAM), why strategy often gets disconnected from execution, and how organizations can use partnerships to accelerate growth rather than simply generate sourced revenue. The conversation explores what a gold-standard partner strategy looks like, how to measure the true value of partner relationships, why focused partner ecosystems outperform “everything to everyone” approaches, and how field teams can turn individual deals into long-term partner momentum. In this episode: • The missing link between PTAM and field execution • Why partner strategy cannot live only on a PowerPoint deck • How to calculate the real value of a partner relationship • Why focused partner strategies outperform broad ecosystems • How deals can become “currency” for building partner momentum • The difference between sourcing revenue and accelerating TAM • How companies can unlock growth they couldn't achieve alone About Akshay Rao & Tom Henderson - Akshay Rao and Tom Henderson are veteran partner and channel executives who have worked together for more than 11 years across companies including Wiz, Zscaler, AppDynamics, and Skytap. They are now co-founders of a stealth startup focused on rethinking how companies build and execute transformational revenue through the channel ecosystem. Subscribe to Hunters and Unicorns for conversations with the leaders building, scaling, and transforming high-growth technology companies. #HuntersAndUnicorns #PartnerStrategy #ChannelSales #B2BSales #RevenueGrowth #GoToMarket #SalesLeadership #Partnerships #SaaS #techleadership Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 1:23 — Welcome & Introductions 3:06 — What Does Gold Standard Look Like? 5:20 — TAM & the Missing Link to Field Execution 8:18 — Opportunity Cost Across Company Sizes 9:28 — Strategy vs Execution — Where It Falls Apart 10:30 — How to Practically Identify Your Partner TAM 16:01 — Executive Sponsorship — The First Gate 20:40 — What Being Easy to Work With Actually Means 25:00 — Why Aren't More Reps Doing This? 31:50 — Multi-Party Attribution — The Real Problem 37:51 — How the Cisco Model Changed Partnering 42:27 — Can You Build Channel-First From Day One? 51:59 — Doomed at Every Size — The Core Frustration 1:00:12 — Why Would Anyone Work in Channel 1:02:20 — Why Tom Turned Down Jobs to Found Mobilize 1:05:30 — What Is Mobilize & How Does It Work 1:11:30 — Who Is Mobilize Built For & What's the Outcome 1:13:25 — Closing

What if motivation is actually the thing holding you back? In this episode of Hunters and Unicorns, hosts Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne sit down with Sean Conway, an eight-time world record holder, extreme endurance athlete, keynote speaker, and performance coach—to unpack the mindset behind sustained high performance. Sean explains why motivation is an unreliable energy source, how world-class performers build systems instead of relying on willpower, and why consistency always beats intensity over the long run. From breaking endurance records to coaching high performers, he shares practical lessons that apply just as much to software sales, leadership, and business as they do to elite sport. In this episode: Why motivation is overrated The system that creates consistent performance How to build discipline that lasts Lessons from breaking eight world records Why ordinary people can achieve extraordinary results Endurance principles every sales leader should know How to perform under pressure without burning out Building habits that outperform talent Subscribe for more conversations with the world's top founders, operators, and GTM leaders sharing the playbooks behind exceptional performance. With thanks to our sponsor Aurasell AI. #HuntersAndUnicorns #SeanConway #SalesLeadership #Performance #Motivation #Discipline #SystemsThinking #Sales #Leadership #highperformance 0:00 — Trailer 1:17 — Introduction & Sponsor 3:01 — How Many World Records 7:49 — Elite vs Average Iron Man Time 9:20 — Was He Always Innately Motivated 12:50 — Was He a Sporty Kid 15:00 — Why Has He Been Able to Achieve This 16:55 — Community Within the Pillars 24:44 — From a Low Point to an Audacious Goal 31:55 — Practical Implementation of the Plan 36:28 — Getting Up Every Morning for 105 Days 39:33 — The Power of Having a Plan 41:24 — Factoring in Distractions and Life 43:18 — Mentally Dealing With Derailed Plans 44:25 — Was There a Point He Wanted to Quit 47:20 — End Goal vs Breaking It Into Segments 49:30 — Being Present in the Now 51:47 — Parallels to Business and Sales 56:50 — Motivation Levels Through the Journey 1:01:37 — Work Outside of Endurance 1:03:39 — What He Looks for in Coaching Clients 1:12:23 — Closing

What does it really take to scale a software company from $35M to $2B ARR? In this episode of Hunters & Unicorns, Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne sit down with Dan Barrett, SVP International at Figma and former MongoDB leader, to unpack the lessons behind one of SaaS's most remarkable growth stories. Dan shares why he hates the word "playbook," how MongoDB evolved through multiple sales transformations, and why the best leaders focus on developing people—not following a rigid process. The conversation explores authenticity in leadership, building high-performance teams, scaling PLG and enterprise sales motions, customer success, AI's impact on software sales, and the leadership lessons that helped Dan grow from a first-time manager into one of the industry's most respected sales leaders. In this episode: • Scaling MongoDB from $35M to $2B ARR • Why Dan hates the term "playbook" • The leadership epiphany that changed his career • Building trust without fear or intimidation • PLG vs enterprise sales models • What great sales organizations do differently • How to develop future sales leaders • Why authenticity is a leadership superpower • AI, SaaS, and the future of enterprise sales Subscribe for more conversations with the leaders building the next generation of SaaS companies. #HuntersAndUnicorns #DanBarrett #Figma #MongoDB #SalesLeadership #SaaS #EnterpriseSales #PLG #CustomerSuccess #b2bsales Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 1:02 — Introduction & Sponsor 1:56 — Welcome Dan Barrett 2:35 — Dan's Career & the Epiphany Moment 9:00 — Pressure Before the Epiphany 10:02 — QBRs With John McMahon 11:50 — Fighting for Space to Change 13:37 — From MongoDB to Figma 17:21 — Where PLG Goes Wrong 19:00 — Rethinking the Playbook 23:55 — Learning What Works at Figma 31:46 — Playbook vs Authenticity 33:32 — Moving Into Customer Success 38:06 — Knowing When to Leave MongoDB 41:00 — Sustaining Energy for Nearly a Decade 43:31 — Hunters & Unicorns Origin Story 48:21 — Will Salespeople Survive AI 51:20 — The Future of Figma 54:03 — Closing

In this episode of Hunters & Unicorns, hosts Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne sit down with Olivier Zieleniecki, Global Vice President of Partners at MongoDB, to discuss why the future of enterprise sales will be built around partnerships, ecosystems, and AI. As cloud marketplaces, hyperscalers, and AI continue reshaping how software is bought and sold, Olivier explains why traditional sales frameworks are no longer enough on their own. The next generation of sales leaders must learn how to leverage partner ecosystems, build strategic alliances, and create value beyond a single product or transaction. Drawing on nearly 20 years of enterprise software experience, Olivier shares how MongoDB scaled through partner-led growth, why partnerships are becoming a force multiplier for revenue, and what future CROs need to master to stay relevant in the AI era. In this episode: • How AI is changing enterprise sales • Why partnerships are becoming critical to growth • The evolution of partner-led revenue • How hyperscalers changed software buying • What great enterprise sellers do differently • Why future CROs must understand ecosystems • Strategic partnerships vs transactional selling • Building long-term customer value in the AI era • The future of software go-to-market About Olivier Zieleniecki: Olivier Zieleniecki is the Global Vice President of Partners at MongoDB, leading the company's worldwide partner ecosystem strategy. Over the course of his career, he has helped scale enterprise software organizations while building strategic partnerships that drive long-term growth. About Hunters & Unicorns: Hunters & Unicorns explores the strategies, leadership lessons, and growth playbooks behind the world's most successful software companies through conversations with elite founders, operators, and GTM leaders. With thanks to our sponsors Aurasell. Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 1:20 — Introduction 3:10 — How Software Selling Is Changing 5:12 — How Hyperscalers & AI Are Reshaping the Landscape 7:50 — How Partner Complexity in Deals Has Changed 10:24 — Olivier's Career Journey Into Channel 13:57 — Why These Choices Are Setting Him Up for CRO 15:25 — Strategic vs Sourcing — What's the Difference 17:50 — How to Measure Partner Impact & Influence 19:20 — How Enterprise Sellers Should Work With Partners 21:30 — What Sellers Are Getting Wrong With Partners 23:15 — What Best Practice Actually Looks Like 27:43 — Has the Partner Team Ratio Changed at MongoDB 28:58 — How AI Is Impacting the Partner Ecosystem 30:57 — How AI Channel Strategy Differs From Cloud Alliances 32:40 — Will Classic Sales Principles Survive the AI Era 34:44 — The Guiding Principle Behind the Wizard of Oz Nickname 36:54 — How Partner Landscapes Differ Globally 38:31 — Biggest Predictions for Channel by 2030 40:35 — Tools to Track & Measure Partner Success 43:23 — Should Channel Become a Letter in MEDPIC 44:26 — Closing

In this episode, Peppa Wise, SVP of Go-To-Market at Multiverse, breaks down the real differences between scaling from 0 to 10 million, 10 to 100 million, and beyond. From early-stage hustle and chaos to building scalable systems, leadership teams, and world-class sales processes, this conversation is packed with lessons most operators only learn the hard way. Peppa shares the painful mistakes that shaped her leadership journey, including the year Multiverse fell behind on productive capacity, why hiring the wrong people can quietly destroy growth, and why great leaders must learn to balance accountability with empathy. The conversation also explores AI, workforce transformation, leadership psychology, sales rigor, emotional resilience, and why Multiverse believes the future of work depends on helping companies actually adopt AI — not just buy new tools. If you're building a startup, leading a sales team, scaling a company, or trying to become a better leader, this episode is full of hard-earned insights you can apply immediately. With thanks to our sponsors Aurasell. Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 1:18 — Introduction & Guest Overview 2:59 — What Separates the 0-10, 10-100 & 100M+ Stages 4:48 — Early Learnings & What to Overcome in the 0-10 Journey 7:00 — What Leadership Looks Like at 0-10 8:58 — Reflecting on Your 0-10 Self & Mistakes Made 10:24 — How Mentorship Fuelled Evolution Through Each Stage 13:01 — Is It Okay to Specialize in One Stage 15:38 — What Is Your Long-Term Ambition 17:12 — Have You Changed as a Person Through This Journey 19:46 — How to Coach Leaders Being Inauthentic 21:16 — Were There Any Real Career Low Points 24:26 — What Does Maniacal Productive Capacity Mean 25:57 — What Signals Show Someone Is Ready to Promote 28:38 — Where People Go Wrong With Productive Capacity 33:10 — How to Manage Emotion Under Pressure 37:54 — What Separates First From Second Line Leaders 40:13 — Do You Hire People Similar to Yourself 42:32 — What Changes Has Donn Driven in Year One 45:45 — What Excites You Most About This Next Phase 48:13 — Why Multiverse Is Still the Destination 49:46 — Common Misconceptions About Multiverse 51:17 — Closing & Final Thoughts

What does it really take to scale a sales team inside a billion-dollar company without losing culture, performance, and leadership quality along the way? In this episode, Peppa Wise and Euan Blair break down the real playbook behind scaling one of the fastest-growing teams in the UK. From the chaos of the 0 to 10 million stage to building sustainable systems at scale, this conversation dives deep into leadership, hiring, productive capacity, mentorship, sales culture, and the lessons most founders only learn after painful mistakes. Peppa shares her journey from one of the early hires at Multiverse to leading a 120+ person go-to-market organization, while Euan opens up about building a mission-driven company during one of the biggest shifts in the future of work and AI. The episode also explores: - Why most companies fail when scaling teams - The leadership traits that matter most in hypergrowth - Why top performers don’t always become great leaders - The hidden cost of hiring the wrong people - How elite sales organizations maintain standards while scaling fast - The role AI will play in reshaping workforce productivity - Why culture and mentorship become even more important at scale If you're a founder, sales leader, startup operator, or anyone building inside a fast-growing company, this episode is packed with lessons you rarely hear shared this openly. With thanks to our sponsors, Aurasell. Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 1:03 — Introduction & Guest Overview 2:18 — Peppa's Role at Multiverse 3:02 — How Peppa Ended Up at Multiverse 9:18 — Early Interactions & What That Dynamic Was Like 11:58 — The Transition From SaaS to Services 13:11 — Were You All In From Day One 15:27 — When Did You Start Seeing Proof in the Numbers 17:37 — Were You Ever Intimidated Bringing In Great Talent 19:34 — How the Relationship Between Peppa & Euan Evolved 23:02 — Bringing Donn Into the Business 26:55 — What Donn Brings to Peppa Personally 29:42 — Was Don's Impact Felt Instantly or Gradually 32:50 — How a Visionary Founder Stays Grounded 35:40 — What Excites You Most About the Next Few Years 39:02 — What Could Stop Multiverse From Being Successful 40:38 — Fine-Tuning Direction or Focused on Execution 41:58 — Why Multiverse Is the Right Place to Join Right Now 47:32 — Closing & Final Thoughts

What does the future of hiring, leadership, and company building actually look like in the age of AI? In this episode, Rhys Hughes, Executive Talent Partner at GV, joins us for a fascinating deep dive into the battle for talent happening inside the world’s fastest-growing AI companies. From billion-dollar compensation packages and the rise of vertical AI startups to what founders are really looking for in executives, this conversation pulls back the curtain on how the next generation of iconic companies are being built. We explore the reality of scaling in today’s market. Why velocity has become one of the defining traits of elite founders, how culture is becoming more important than compensation, and why networking and relationship-building are now critical career advantages in an AI-driven world. Rhys also shares incredible insight into what’s happening inside the venture ecosystem at GV, where the biggest opportunities are emerging across AI, robotics, life sciences, frontier tech, and enterprise software — alongside the major risks and bottlenecks founders are navigating in real time. If you're interested in AI, startups, venture capital, hiring, go-to-market strategy, or the future of work, this is an episode you don’t want to miss. Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 1:30 — Introduction & Guest Overview 2:29 — The Battle for Talent in the AI Era 4:36 — Profound Differences in This New Market 6:39 — How Organizations Are Attracting Talent & How Candidates Are Choosing 9:20 — How to Evaluate a Strong Equity Package 11:41 — Are New Comp Models Like Anthropic's Driving the Right Behaviours 14:36 — How Founders Are Approaching Go-to-Market in the AI Era 17:30 — How Does a Company Stand Out 21:44 — What Velocity Really Means & Why It Matters 23:05 — What Rhys Is Seeing From Founders Right Now 26:12 — Rogue Founders: GV's Red Lines & What They Look For 29:17 — Why Building VC Talent Relationships Is Non-Negotiable 36:19 — What Sectors & Trends GV Is Most Excited About 38:14 — Specific AI Trends Shaping GV's Investment Thesis 42:50 — Biggest Bottlenecks That Could Slow Everything Down 44:29 — How GTM Talent Should Get on the Radar of Top Portfolio Companies 47:50 — The Biggest Mistakes People Make Choosing the Wrong Company

From Downing Street to Disrupting the Future of Work! What does it really take to build a $500M+ company that’s reshaping how the world learns and works? In this episode, Euan Blair, Founder & CEO of Multiverse, joins us for a candid, high-energy conversation on building a mission-driven business that actually scales. From reimagining apprenticeships as a global workforce revolution to breaking down the science behind elite B2B sales, this episode is packed with insights most founders never hear. We dive into the reality of the journey. Key hires, tough mistakes, and the inflection points that change everything, alongside a powerful perspective on AI and why it will either transform or disrupt the future of work as we know it. If you're interested in startups, sales, AI, or building something that truly matters, this is one you don’t want to miss! With thanks to our sponsors Aurasell. Timestamps: 0:00 — Trailer 0:54 — Euan Blair Introduction 01:49 — Sponsor: Aurasell 03:07 — Why Euan Chose Founding Over Politics & Finance 05:11 — Was Being a Founder Always the Plan 07:36 — Shaping the Vision & Early Surroundings 09:00 — Why VCs Invested in Multiverse 11:10 — Preparing for First Fundraise 12:34 — Life After Getting the Money 14:20 — Jeremy: The Game-Changing Hire 22:44 — Building the First Sales Team 26:10 — Tough Learnings & Biggest Mistakes 28:30 — Moments of Self-Doubt as a Founder 30:36 — What Really Motivates Euan 33:55 — AI & Workforce Displacement 36:04 — Why Euan Appointed Don D'Arcy's 40:22 — Keeping Pace with AI Change 42:32 — How the CEO Role Is Evolving 43:50 — Multiverse vs Typical SaaS Model 46:00 — What It Takes to Succeed Here

Today we sit down with Doug May, SVP of Productivity at Harness, to discuss one of the most critical yet overlooked aspects of a healthy organization: Sales Productivity. Doug has had an illustrious career at elite organizations including Datadog and Databricks, and he brings that expertise to Harness, where he has cut ramp time in half and increased per-rep contribution by 43%. We explore the "F1 engineering team" analogy of GTM support, why productivity metrics are the ultimate indicator of a company’s health, and the specific questions every candidate should ask to de-risk their next career move. 🙌 Thanks To Our Sponsor! Aurasell AI: https://www.aurasell.ai 🏹 Key Topics Covered 00:00 - In this episode 02:44 – What is Sales Productivity Strategy? 04:00 – The F1 Analogy 05:15 – Measuring Every Step of the Process 07:45 – Cutting Ramp Time in Half at Harness 09:05 – Optimizing the Hiring Profile 12:02 – How Investors Use Productivity as a Health Signal 13:57 – Questions to Ask During Recruiting 18:23 – Benchmarks for Rep Attainment 20:00 – The Six Secrets of Excellence 25:34 – Productivity Leadership and the CRO 31:12 – Understanding CAC and Scalability 42:45 – The 5X Win Rate Improvement 💥 3 Biggest Lessons: The F1 Engineering Team Approach: Doug views the productivity function as the engineering team behind an F1 driver. Elite sellers are the drivers, but they shouldn't be dropped into any car. A world-class productivity strategy provides the fuel (pipeline), the GPS (RevOps), and the tools to optimize every contributor's horsepower to ensure they reach "elite" status. De-Risk Your Career with Data: Candidates should scrutinize an organization’s health through productivity metrics, not just OTE. Key indicators include ramp time (e.g., 7 months vs. 15 months), the percentage of ramped reps achieving quota, and average deal size. If a CEO does not list sales productivity as one of their top three success metrics, it is a sign that the organization may view sales as a cost center rather than an investment engine. Decision Velocity is Critical for Growth: In a high-growth environment, waiting to make decisions is not an option. Doug highlights the concept of one-way vs. two-way doors: identifying which decisions are reversible so the team can maintain high velocity. This agility allows an organization to respond to data in real-time and win the competitive race. 💬 Notable Quotes "We are basically there to optimize the horsepower of every single seller in the organization." "Any change is incremental until you pile them on top of each other." "If sales productivity is not one of [the top three metrics], I should probably walk away." "Great talent... can make hay in any field if they’re supported properly." "You have to be willing to do the hard, hard stuff." 🙌 Thanks for listening! This episode was hosted by Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne, founders of Hunters & Unicorns, and post-produced by the team at videoforce.pro. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a like/share and subscribe to our channel! 🦄 Connect with Hunters & Unicorns Website: http://huntersandunicorns.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/HuntersUn1corns Instagram: http://instagram.com/huntersandunicorns Blog: http://huntersandunicorns.com/blog #softwaresales #huntersandunicorns #playbookuniverse #salesproductivity

In this episode, we sit down with Anish Agarwal, CEO and Co-founder of Traversal, for a deep dive into the substance behind the AI noise. Anish, a former Columbia professor and researcher in causal AI, shares his unique journey from academia to founding an organization disrupting the site reliability engineering (SRE) and observability space. We explore the critical difference between "AI wrappers" and companies building genuine infrastructure, the emergence of the "Forward Deployed Engineer" in the sales pod, and how to identify technical moats in a world where models are rapidly evolving. 🙌 Thanks To Our Sponsor! Aurasell AI: https://www.aurasell.ai 🏹 Key Topics Covered 00:00 - Intro 01:53 – Traversal: the AI Site Reliability Engineer 03:14 – AI Wrappers vs. AI Native 04:58 – The Importance of a Technical Moat 07:27 – Human Error and Data Scarcity 08:56 – From Experimental Budgets to Production Reality 14:42 – The Rise of the "Forward Deployed Engineer" 22:50 – From PhD to Founder 34:50 – Rethinking the Observability Stack 💥 3 Biggest Lessons: A Technical Moat Lives in Infrastructure and Data: Anish argues that a sustainable AI company must be an infrastructure and data company at its core. If your value is purely in prompt engineering or simple workflows, model companies (like OpenAI) will eventually "eat" those features. A true moat is developed through context engineering—managing petabytes of data in a way that is consumable for LLMs—and functioning on systems elements haven't been trained on, such as private observability logs. Target Workflows Where Humans Are "Bad": When assessing the longevity of an AI solution, look at the tasks it automates. If a human is already good at the task, data for that workflow is easily collected and fed into public models, making the solution easy to replicate. The most defensible AI companies solve superhuman problems—tasks humans are inherently bad at or data types (like time-series logs) that are not publicly available for training. The Chasm Between Pilot and Production: We are entering a phase where the "experimental AI budget" is drying up. Winners in the next two years will be companies that can connect their year-long pilots to hard labor or software spend. This requires tight technical scoping and a "pre-sales mindset" that lasts long after the initial check is signed to ensure the product survives the first renewal cycle. 💬 Notable Quotes "As much as we’ve been an AI company, we’ve been an infrastructure and data company." "If you are creating prompts or simple workflows, the models will just keep eating those up." "The un-sexy part of AI—how you actually deploy this and comply with regulation—that is what is now maturing." "Sales is a first-class citizen in the company... a less good product can win if you have the right team to bring it to market." "I’ve become a student of sales... it eventually becomes a systems engineering problem." 🙌 Thanks for listening! This episode was hosted by Simon Kouttis and Oli Kuehne, founders of Hunters & Unicorns, and post-produced by the team at videoforce.pro. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a like/share and subscribe to our channel! 🦄 Connect with Hunters & Unicorns Website: http://huntersandunicorns.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/HuntersUn1corns Instagram: http://instagram.com/huntersandunicorns Blog: http://huntersandunicorns.com/blog #softwaresales #huntersandunicorns #playbookuniverse

Today we tackle the noise surrounding the AI movement with Paul Klein, CEO and Founder of Browserbase. With a career spanning early-stage Twilio to raising $70 million in under two years for his own infrastructure startup, Paul brings much-needed critical thinking to the "AI bubble" debate. We explore the bridge between old-world sales principles and modern, developer-first GTM strategies. Paul breaks down why Product-Led Growth (PLG) should be viewed as a pipeline engine rather than just a revenue machine and explains the power of the "Logo Flywheel" in creating executive FOMO. 🙌 Thanks To Our Sponsor! Aurasell AI: https://www.aurasell.ai 🏹 Key Topics Covered 00:00 - Intro 02:20 - AI Bubble: Hype vs. Genuine Technology Value 05:19 - Building the "Logo Flywheel" 08:42 - Raising $70M in 2 Years 10:15 - Infrastructure Power 11:13 - PLG as a Lead Engine 19:15 - Selling Inspiration, Not Just Problems 32:14 - From Twilio to Browserbase 36:00 - Building a Generational Company 💥 3 Biggest Lessons: Bring Critical Thinking to the AI Wave: While technology is creating real value, Paul warns against blindly buying into the financing hype. He emphasizes that both sellers and buyers must look for sustainable business models and long-term viability. Success in the AI era requires a "critical eye" to separate genuine innovation from experimental revenue that may not renew. The "Logo Flywheel" is the Ultimate De-Risk: For infrastructure companies, social proof is invaluable. Executives often make decisions based on FOMO (fear of missing out), looking for established logos to validate their choice. By landing high-profile customers early, you create a flywheel effect that makes subsequent sales easier and de-risks the purchase for the next executive buyer. PLG and Sales are Not a False Dichotomy: Paul challenges the idea that you must choose between being a PLG company or a sales-led company. Instead, use PLG as a lead engine. Letting developers self-serve allows them to "try on" the software like a jacket, while the sales team focuses on high-value "graduation" opportunities—converting active users into enterprise-level champions. 💬 Notable Quotes "We need to bring critical thinking to the AI bubble and the AI wave." "If you can get these great logos that inspire other companies, it's going to be much easier to sell." "Developers... want to try it on. You don’t just buy a jacket without trying it on." "You have to think a lot more like an angel investor or a VC than like a salesperson." "First move is often lose... someone can copy everything... but they won’t get the 10,000 hours of customer understanding." 🙌 Thanks for listening! This episode was hosted by Simon Kouttis and Ollie Kuehne, founders of Hunters & Unicorns, and post-produced by the team at videoforce.pro. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a like/share and subscribe to our channel! 🦄 Connect with Hunters & Unicorns Website: http://huntersandunicorns.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/HuntersUn1corns Instagram: http://instagram.com/huntersandunicorns Blog: http://huntersandunicorns.com/blog #softwaresales #huntersandunicorns #playbookuniverse