Learning How to See with Brian McLaren

Today our hosts reflect on the story of Jacob — a trickster who gets tricked, and whose dreams are deferred. They also discuss Randy and Edith Woodleys’ decades-long work to build Eloheh Indigenous Center for Earth Justice. Randy and Edith elaborate on why “we’re still here” matters for Indigenous people today and illuminate a vision of shared, interconnected, well-being.  Resources: Find the transcript for today's episode here. Learn more about ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠the Woodleys and Eloheh here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.  Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Journey to Eloheh⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ by Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.  Discover more about composer April Stace ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

Today's episode features an audio essay from Edith Woodley on the Biblical story of Joseph, which she first knew as a child in its tidy, happily-ever-after form. Brian McLaren and Randy Woodley respond, tracing how favoritism, from Jacob’s family to colonial rule in Rwanda and Burundi, can create cycles of intergenerational trauma.  What changes when we read these ancestral stories as the stories of real, wounded people rather than as tidy morals? Tune in to consider what it means to find God in the messiness of life.   Resources: Find the transcript for today's episode here. Learn more about ⁠⁠⁠⁠the Woodleys and Eloheh here⁠⁠⁠⁠.  Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, ⁠⁠⁠⁠How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠Journey to Eloheh⁠⁠⁠⁠ by Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.  Discover more about composer April Stace ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here.⁠⁠⁠⁠ Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

In today's episode, we look at the Genesis 12 story of Abram, in contrast to that of Joshua. Hosts Brian McLaren, Randy Woodley, and Edith Woodley explore how Abram, as an immigrant, respects the customs and values of those around him, versus Joshua's conquering narrative. The three reflect on how the Bible can be used to justify harm, or harmony, focusing on the way in which Westerners coming to the United States wielded Joshua's approach as a weapon against Native Peoples. The episode also asks us to consider how our lens on Biblical narratives leads us to The Harmony Way, or to greater separation from each other and the land. Resources: Find the transcript for today's episode here.⁠ Learn more about ⁠⁠⁠the Woodleys and Eloheh here⁠⁠⁠.  Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, ⁠⁠⁠How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠Journey to Eloheh⁠⁠⁠ by Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.  Discover more about composer April Stace ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here.⁠⁠⁠ Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

In today's episode, we look at the Genesis 12 story of Abram’s call. Hosts Brian McLaren, Randy Woodley, and Edith Woodley explore what it means to be “blessed to be a blessing,” how generosity and hospitality can shape our identities, and how a strong sense of identity can become a gift to others rather than a reason for exclusion or domination.  The episode also asks us to consider our own character arcs. Where are we being invited to grow? What would it mean to understand what we have as something meant not only for ourselves, but for the benefit of others?  Resources: Find the transcript for today's episode here. Learn more about ⁠⁠the Woodleys and Eloheh here⁠⁠.  Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, ⁠⁠How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.⁠⁠  ⁠⁠Journey to Eloheh⁠⁠ by Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.  Discover more about composer April Stace ⁠⁠⁠⁠here.⁠⁠ Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

In today's episode, we explore the story of the Tower of Babel and turn the usual reading of it upside down. Diverse languages, in this telling, are not the curse — the tower is.  In this conversation, Brian McLaren, Randy Woodley, and Edith Woodley talk about the cost of enforced sameness — from Native American boarding schools to the quiet pressure many people feel to hide what makes them different. What does it mean for the church to keep trying to finish a tower that the Creator never wanted rebuilt?  Resources: Find the transcript for today's episode here. Learn more about ⁠the Woodleys and Eloheh here⁠.  Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, ⁠How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.⁠  ⁠Journey to Eloheh⁠ by Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.  Discover more about composer April Stace ⁠⁠⁠here.⁠ Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

Thank you for joining us for today's episode of Learning How to See, hosted by Brian McLaren, with guest hosts Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley and Edith Woodley.   Today, Edith reads the Biblical flood story from Genesis 6–9. She then connects this flood story to the U.S. government’s Native American boarding school system — including her own family’s history at the Carlisle Indian Industrial School.  Our hosts invite us to consider: what does it mean to survive a flood that was “meant to cover everything” — and didn’t? Resources: Find the transcript for today's episode here. Learn more about the Woodleys and Eloheh here.  Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.  Journey to Eloheh by Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.  Discover more about composer April Stace ⁠⁠here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

In today's episode, our hosts Brian McLaren, Randy Woodley, and Edith Woodley explore the story of Cain and Abel through a lens of Indigenous wisdom, considering the origins of human violence and the contrast between “earth people” and “empire people.” Together they reflect on harmony, balance, and the Biblical call to be our “brother’s keeper.”  Listen in as our hosts unpack Genesis 4 alongside a Cherokee story of the terrapin and the wolves, consider how violence and domination shape human communities — and how choosing nonviolence and reciprocity can help us find another way.  Resources:  Find the transcript for today's episode here. Learn more about the Woodleys and Eloheh here.  Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.  Journey to Eloheh by Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.  Discover more about composer April Stace ⁠here. Connect with us:   Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  

Welcome to the 10th season of Learning How to See hosted by Brian McLaren and guest hosts Rev. Dr. Randy Woodley and Edith Woodley. In today's episode, our hosts examine Genesis 1 through the lens of Indigenous wisdom, contrasting “earth people” with “empire people.” “Earth people” understand themselves as part of an interconnected web of life and practice caring for the land. “Empire people,” instead, emphasize domination and control.   Join us at our Bible study, as Brian, Edith, and Randy unpack Genesis 1, and invite us to consider how we hear and interpret the Bible. Find the transcript for this episode here. Resources:  Learn more about the Woodleys and Eloheh here.  Pick up a copy of Randy’s new book, How Western Christianity Got It Wrong.  Journey to Eloheh by Randy and Edith Woodley explores how Indigenous values lead us to harmony and well-being.  Discover more about composer April Stace here. Connect with us:   Have a question you’d like Brian, Randy, or Edith to answer about this season?   Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

Season Ten begins September 10th! This season on Learning How to See, host Brian McLaren and co-hosts Randy and Edith Woodley will focus on experiencing the Biblical text with a heart of seeking and curiosity. Brief readings from the book of Genesis will be followed by essays or stories with themes similar to that of the Biblical passages. The episodes will conclude with round-table conversations about the ways we see and experience stories differently. For faith reclaimers eager to help heal a hurting world, reimagine Christianity as a path of compassion, justice, and care for creation on Learning How to See: The Bible. Join us in exploring the book of Genesis through fresh perspectives rooted in wonder, wisdom, and lived experience.

Today Brian and Carmen address your questions including a deeper dive into Carmen's translation of Corinthians 13, what we mean when talk about love, and tips for knowing when to leave. Resources: Find the transcript for this episode here.

What do we do when life unravels in painful ways — like navigating an unexpected divorce? On today's episode of Learning How to See, Carmen and Brian are joined by New York Times Bestselling author Jen Hatmaker. With great humor and authenticity, Jen takes us through the vulnerable experience of sharing her story, the transformation she went through after loss, and the spiritual power of starting over. Jen reflects on themes from her new memoir Awake,⁠ and shares how her divorce helped her trust her inner knowing, become more fully embodied, and rebuild a life rooted in integrity rather than expectation. Tune in to discover how community and self-compassion can guide us through seasons of upheaval — and how choosing honesty can become its own form of liberation. Resources: Pick up a copy of Jen's latest book, Awake, here. Learn more about Jen here. Find the transcript for today's episode here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

How can we see others, and ourselves, with love when anger, fear, depression, or division clouds our vision? Today's episode of Learning How to See features an interview with Quaker elder Parker J. Palmer. Parker helps us explore how love can become a way of seeing, how we can navigate times of depression, and why listening to each other’s life stories may be our best antidote to polarization. Join us as Parker reflects on encounters that reshaped his assumptions about “the other,” sharing insights from decades of Quaker practice. Resources: Subscribe to Parker's Substack here. Learn more about the Center for Renewal and Courage here. Follow Parker on Facebook here. Find the transcript for this episode here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

How can we de-Westernize spirituality and honor our full humanity within systems that often diminish it? On this episode of Learning How to See, Dr. Cindy Lee, a spiritual director and author, joins hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher for a conversation on de-Westernizing spirituality and holding space for the lived experience of others. Cindy shares how her work with BIPOC communities revealed the limits of Westernized spiritual formation, and how confronting the “Western missionary gaze” can open us to seeing our cultures — and ourselves — with dignity rather than judgment. Resources: Read Howard Thurman's "The Sound of the Genuine" here. Find the transcript of this episode⁠ ⁠here.⁠⁠ Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

How do we soften our hearts to those whose values are in stark contrast to our own? Can we safely love those who have even gone so far as to harm us? On this episode of Learning How to See, Dr. Cassidy Hall, author of Queering Contemplation, poses these tough questions to our hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher. Together, they explore how we can respond with integrity when our deepest values are met with opposition. Through personal stories, Brian and Carmen model ways in which they’ve grappled with loving in the face of persecution, strained family dynamics, and systemic incongruities with their own values. Resources: Discover more about Dr. Cassidy Hall ⁠here. Find the transcript of this episode⁠ here.⁠ Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠⁠ Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

How can we open ourselves to being hosts in the world? On this episode of Learning How To See, we hear from social entrepreneur Becca Stevens, founder of Thistle Farms, a nonprofit which provides sanctuary, employment, and hope for women survivors of trafficking, exploitation, and addiction. Becca invites us to see holiness in unlikely places — just like the thistle growing through cracks in the pavement. In the ninth season of Learning How To See, we continue to learn how to see through the eyes of love. Our hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher reflect on what it means to stay present when love feels complicated. Resources: Find out more about Becca here. Find out more about Thistle Farms here. Pick up a copy of Becca's book, Snake Oil, here. Find the transcript of this episode here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠ Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

It can feel easy to offer compassion to others. But, why is it so hard to extend that same tenderness to ourselves? In Season 9 of Learning How To See, we continue to learn how to see through the eyes of love. On this season premiere, author and storyteller Kaitlin Curtice joins our hosts Brian McLaren and Carmen Acevedo Butcher to explore Indigenous wisdom, the Potawatomi language, and daily rituals of gratitude. Resources: Learn more about Kaitlin Curtice here. Pick up a copy of Kaitlin's latest book, Everything is a Story, here. Join Kaitlin's Substack, The Liminality Journal, here. The transcript for this episode can be found here. Connect with us: Have a question you’d like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠

On our ninth season of Learning How to See, Brian McLaren and guest co-host, Carmen Acevedo Butcher, continue to explore seeing through eyes of love. Through openhearted conversation, podcast guests share experiences in which their lens of love became more finely tuned. We also share embodied practices to help you expand your own capacity to see and act through love, especially during uncertain and turbulent times.

What if love could guide you through anger, injustice, and even the darkest memories? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher reflect on how love, honesty, and contemplative practice can transform even deep wounds. They also respond to a listener’s question: how do we love those who cause harm—especially in politics? Brian and Carmen explore the tension between righteous anger and loving action, offering spiritual insights, personal stories, and practices that help us see with the eyes of love. Resources: Find the poem by Nikolai Velimirovich here Find the poem by Walter Brueggemann here

What would change if you could see with eyes of love—even in the face of cruelty, fear, and disagreement? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher sit down with renowned spiritual leader, legal advocate, and activist Sister Simone Campbell for a deeply honest conversation about love, justice, and compassion. They explore how contemplative practice grounds fierce activism, why listening is an act of love, and what it means to see even your political opponents with empathy. From her role in passing the Affordable Care Act to launching the "Nuns on the Bus" movement, Sister Simone shares moving stories of courage, community, and the Spirit’s surprising guidance—inviting us all into a new way of seeing and being. Resources: You can find a transcript for this episode here. Find Sr Simone Campbell's book Hunger for Hope here.

What would change if you believed that active, creative non-violence was the deepest expression of love? In this episode, Brian McLaren and co-host Carmen Acevedo Butcher welcome legendary peace activist, Catholic priest, and author Fr. John Dear for an unflinching conversation about the cost—and the healing power—of universal non-violence. Together they explore how language shapes our discipleship, what it feels like to be seen with unconditional love, and why “live and stop the killing” may be the clearest way to describe love in action. Resources: Find out more about Fr. John Dear here. Find out more The Beatitudes Center for the Nonviolent Jesus: here. The transcript for this episode can be found here. Connect with us: Have a question you'd like Brian or Carmen to answer about this season? Email us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠podcasts@cac.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠cac.org/voicemail⁠⁠⁠