The case for conserving nature and its biodiversity needs to be robust and credible. Sometimes that requires a willingness to re-examine conventional wisdom. Monthly episodes of The Case for Conservation Podcast feature introspective conversations with fascinating experts - from ecologists to economists, young professionals to Nobel laureates, journalists to media personalities.
68. Is degrowth a viable path to sustainability? (Jeroen van den Bergh)
Few ideas are as deeply embedded in how we run our societies as economic growth. Across the political spectrum growth is treated as self-evidently good, and the debate tends to be a tug-of-war between those who want to keep growing and those who argue we urgently need to do the opposite. Degrowth is the argument that wealthy societies should deliberately shrink their economies to stay within the planet's limits. Most of us can probably sense that there's no end to the expansion of human activity, and that something has to give. But how well does degrowth actually hold up when you examine the evidence behind it? And is it a realistic strategy for confronting our environmental crisis, or is it missing the point? My guest is Jeroen van den Bergh , a Research Professor at the Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona and at VU University Amsterdam, and one of the sharpest critics of the degrowth movement. But as you'll hear, he's an equally sharp critic of growth-at-all-costs. In 2024 he published a widely discussed review of the degrowth literature that concluded much of it is built on conviction rather than rigorous research, a verdict that earned plenty of push-back. In this conversation we dig into the appeal of degrowth, the reasons it's politically radioactive, and what a more evidence-based approach to growth and the environment might look like. Links to resources Reviewing studies of degrowth: Are claims matched by data, methods and policy analysis? - Jeroen's 2024 paper with Ivan Savin, reviewing the body of work on degrowth. Environment versus growth - A criticism of "degrowth" and a plea for "a-growth" - An earlier (2011) degrowth and a-growth paper by Jeroen. Visit www.case4conservation.com
67. Synthetic biology: Distraction, or conservation's future? (Kent Redford)
Synthetic biology, the engineering of life at the genetic level, is advancing at pace. Much of the public conversation fixates on de-extinction and charismatic creatures like woolly mammoths, dire wolves, and moas, but is that really what matters in this new world we are looking at? And while we debate whether these technologies should be applied to the natural world at all, massive investment in human medicine and agriculture is already releasing genetically modified organisms into open systems, including soils, freshwater, oceans, and even our own bodies. Synthetic biology also raises difficult questions about who benefits, who bears the costs, and what it means when private intellectual property becomes embedded in the genome of an endangered species. To explore all of this, I spoke with returning guest on the show Kent Redford , a conservation scientist who has spent well over a decade trying to bring synthetic biology to the attention of conservationists. We discuss the blurry line between genetic engineering and synthetic biology, the promise and peril of engineered gene drives, and why he believes the field's obsession with de-extinction is largely a waste of time. Kent also makes a deeper, more unsettling argument: that conservation is gripped by a kind of "Holocene hubris," still trying to restore a past that is already slipping away. Links to resources Strange Natures: Conservation in the Era of Synthetic Biology - Kent's book on synthetic biology in conservation Synthetic soil crusts against green-desert transitions - 2021 article by Solé and co-authors Beneficial Microorganisms for Corals (BMC): Proposed Mechanisms for Coral Health and Resilience - 2017 artilce by Peixoto and co-authors Visit www.case4conservation.com
66. Do We Need to Collaborate Less? (Örjan Bodin)
Collaboration is one of the most widely accepted ideas in environmental governance. When faced with a complex problem, the instinct is almost always to bring stakeholders together and work toward a shared solution. When that process fails the response is often to “collaborate harder”. But what if that instinct is sometimes counterproductive? What if the sheer number of collaborative initiatives is stretching participants so thin that none of them achieve very much? And what if the conflicts that collaboration is supposed to resolve are actually being deepened by the process itself? To explore these questions, I spoke with previous guest Örjan Bodin , Professor at the Stockholm Resilience Centre at Stockholm University. Örjan's research examines how networks of actors collaborate — or fail to collaborate — around environmental problems, and what determines whether those efforts lead to meaningful outcomes. We discuss why collaboration is not always the best response to every problem, how conflict and cooperation coexist, the role of power imbalances in shaping outcomes, why trust takes far longer to build than most initiatives allow for, and whether the small, incremental wins that feel unsatisfying might actually be the best path to lasting progress. Links to resources Polycentric systems for coping with collective action and global environmental change - 2010 Ostrom article about the benefits of small initial gains. A population ecology of network domains. Public Management Review - 2023 article on the issue of ever-increasing number of collaborative venues. Reconciling Conflict and Cooperation in Environmental Governance: A Social Network Perspective - 2020 article by Örjan and others on the interplay between conflict and collaboration, and its (partial) separation in scholarly work on environmental governance. Collaborative environmental governance: Achieving collective action in social-ecological systems - 2017 article by Örjan in Science . The Environmental Performance of Participatory and Collaborative Governance: A Framework of Causal Mechanisms - 2018 article by Newig et al. Visit www.case4conservation.com
65. Is knowledge enough for environmental governance? (Mark Neff)
The relationship between science, policy, and society is often framed as a search for objective answers. In reality, it is shaped by partial perspectives and competing forms of knowledge. Why do certain perspectives dominate? Why is there such a persistent expectation that science can deliver answers to fundamentally political questions? And how do these dynamics affect trust in expertise? To explore these questions, I spoke with Mark Neff , Professor at the College of the Environment at Western Washington University. Mark’s work sits at the intersection of environmental policy, science policy, and science and technology studies, focusing on how societies organize and use scientific knowledge in decision-making. We discuss the limits of scientific authority in a democracy, the tensions between different forms of knowledge, the risks of claiming certainty, and why acknowledging uncertainty may be essential to restore trust in science and policy. Link to resources De-Facto Science Policy in the Making How Scientists Shape Science Policy and Why it Matters - A 2013 (but still relevant) paper co-authored by Mark Mark is currently working on a book introducing some of the ideas we discuss. Link to details will be added here once it is available. Visit www.case4conservation.com
64. Avoiding a sixth mass extinction is a weak case for conservation (John Wiens)
Biodiversity loss is an ongoing challenge, but some of the language we use to describe it may be on shakier ground than we realize. Are we really living through a “sixth mass extinction”? What does that phrase technically imply, and how well is it supported by the data? And what about climate change: how much species-level extinction can credibly be attributed to warming so far, and how do you attribute causes when multiple threats interact? To explore these questions, I spoke with John Wiens , an ecologist at the University of Arizona whose work focuses on extinction rates and climate-driven range losses. We discuss what the evidence suggests about acceleration (or the lack thereof) in extinction in recent decades, why documented extinctions have been concentrated on islands and in freshwater systems, and how climate change is expected to reshape extinction risk through mechanisms like heat extremes, shifting range limits, and disease dynamics. The thread running through it all is credibility and ambition: how to communicate urgency without overclaiming, and why a stronger conservation goal is not “avoiding a mass extinction,” but preventing extinctions wherever we still can. Links to resources Future threats to biodiversity and pathways to their prevention - The 2017 Tilman et al. article that John referred to in our discussion Questioning the sixth mass extinction - A 2025 article by John and colleague Visit www.case4conservation.com
63. What is the full cost of the energy transition? (Saleem Ali)
This episode does not argue against renewable energy—renewables are essential to decarbonization—but it does ask what the transition looks like when you account for materials, extraction, and infrastructure. The clean energy transition is often framed as a straightforward swap: renewables replace fossil fuels, emissions fall, problem solved. But beneath that story sits a harder set of questions. How material-intensive is a renewables-led grid, really? What happens when you account for the steel, concrete, and critical minerals that make wind, solar, and battery storage possible? And if mining expands dramatically to enable decarbonization, what are the environmental and social trade-offs? To explore these questions, I spoke with Saleem Ali , a systems scientist and industrial ecologist at the University of Delaware who studies the “materials–energy nexus”—the idea that energy systems are constrained not only by fuels and emissions, but by infrastructure, extraction, and supply chains. We talk about why wind and solar can be surprisingly material-heavy up front, how storage options like pumped hydro compare with large battery farms, why nuclear and biofuels remain part of the conversation, and what a more pragmatic approach looks like when every option carries trade-offs. Links to Resources The fight over minerals for green energy — and a better way forward - Saleem's 2024 TED Talk Visit www.case4conservation.com
62. Why is nuance missing from environmental discourse? (Roger Pielke Jr.)
The intersection of science, politics, and environmental discourse is full of puzzles: why has nuance gone missing from the conversation? Why are heterodox or balanced views often sidelined? And how do echo chambers, alarmist rhetoric, and the erosion of trust hinder lasting progress in conservation? To explore these questions, I spoke with Roger Pielke Jr. , a political scientist well-known for his work on contested science in contentious policy areas, from climate and extreme weather to COVID origins and sports governance. Links to resources The Honest Broker - Roger's website and blog, with lots of free content and even more in the paid version. What Happened on Deliberation Day? 2007 paper mentioned by Roger in which the researchers found that like-minded deliberation led to stronger, more extreme post-discussion views, while mixed groups became more open and less certain. The Rightful Place of Science: Disasters and Climate Change - Book by Roger, emphasizing evidence-based nuance over alarmism. Messaging Should Reflect the Nuanced Relationship between Land Change and Zoonotic Disease Risk - BioScience paper that we discussed, on the links between land change and zoonotic spillover risk. Visit www.case4conservation.com
61. Rewilding: What? And why? (Marine Drouilly)
The concept of rewilding has been applied in various ways, from the simple restoration of a single natural process like removing livestock to allow vegetation to recover, to ambitious proposals to reintroduce long-extinct megafauna. While some applications have obvious conservation benefits, rewilding also raises legitimate concerns, especially about how renewed interactions with reintroduced wildlife like large herbivores and carnivores, might affect human wellbeing, livelihoods, and land use. Rewilding has become a popular and sometimes controversial topic within conservation circles. It has also been gaining traction and growing public and governmental interest as societies search for more holistic approaches to restoring ecosystem processes and biodiversity. Joining me to unpack what rewilding means, and to explore the potential conflicts and compromises that come with it, is Marine Drouilly . Marine is the Regional Coordinator for Wild Cat Surveys and Research in West and Central Africa with the NGO "Panthera". Links to resources: Guidelines for evaluating the success of large carnivore reintroductions - A relevant paper in Biological Conservation co-authored by Marine Panthera - Website of the organization Marine works for Visit www.case4conservation.com
60. What’s the role of youth in environmental decision-making? (Mika Tan)
Multilateral environmental agreements (MEAs) are negotiated by national governments, but they also include input from various societal groups. One of these groups is youth, and their role in negotiations has grown more visible and coordinated over time. But are these contributions helping to enrich discussions and inspire ambition, or simply adding another layer to already complex processes? And why have separate groups if governments are meant to represent all of their citizens? In this episode, we take a closer look at the place of youth in forums like these — and what constructive and meaningful participation looks like. My guest is Mika Tan , advisor to the Southeast Asia chapter of the Global Youth Biodiversity Network (among other roles) and a passionate advocate for youth voices in global decision-making. Links to resources: Youth in international nature conservation: The example of youth participation in the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD) - Analysis of the extent and quality of youth participation within the CBD (German article, English abstract). The contradictions of youth participation for intergenerational justice in urban environmental planning - An article that critiques the politicization of the application of intergenerational justice. Global Youth Biodiversity Network - Website of the organization that Mika mentions in our discussion. Visit www.case4conservation.com
59. Nature-based Solutions - NbS (Joy Ommer)
One of the most popular terms in conservation these days is “nature-based solutions” (NbS). The concept is centered around the various ways in which conservation (including restoration and sustainable use) can benefit society, economy and environment. NbS are alternatives to engineered solutions to these problems, which benefit people as well as nature. Sounds straightforward, and the concept has been taken up in government policy and largely embraced by conservation science. And yet it has been somewhat divisive, for very different reasons. Joy Ommer is scientific lead at KAJO, a Slovakia-based geoservices consultancy focused on disaster risk reduction and management. In a recent paper she and some project partners write about the importance of understanding the impacts of nature-based solutions before they are actually implemented. We discussed this and other issues around the NbS concept. Links to Resources Quantifying co-benefits and disbenefits of Nature-based Solutions targeting Disaster Risk Reduction - 2022 article in the International Journal of Disaster Risk Reduction by Joy and co-authors, which we refer to in our discussion Nature-based solutions: using the power of nature - Some examples of NbS on an IUCN webpage Visit www.case4conservation.com
58. Precision agriculture: farming on steroids, or boon to conservation? (Mark McConnell)
The term "precision agriculture" has high-tech and “big ag.” connotations, and is usually not associated with biodiversity. But there is a strong argument to be made that it is one of the best things that has happened to conservation in recent decades. Agriculture remains the biggest driver of biodiversity loss in most parts of the world, so anything that reduces its impact might be worth taking note of. Mark McConnell , an assistant professor at Mississippi State University, joins us on this episode to explain why precision agriculture is a boon for conservation. We also talk about the accompanying concept of precision conservation, which he has been promoting, as well as the old “land sharing versus land sparing” debate. For listeners unfamiliar with that debate, check the podcast notes for a couple of key references, as well as some of Mark’s work. Links to resources: What conservationists need to know about farming - early (2012) paper by Balmford and co-authors on the land sharing versus land sparing debate Precision Conservation to Enhance Wildlife Benefits in Agricultural Landscapes - 2017 book chapter by Mark and a co-author Gamebird University - Mark's podcast Visit www.case4conservation.com
57. What are we getting wrong about biodiversity loss? (Maria Dornelas)
The concept of biodiversity loss is absolutely integral to conservation, and I have never met anyone who has seriously challenged the idea that too many species are going extinct, nor that their extinction is a result of human pressures. So, what do we make of multiple studies telling us that we shouldn’t be focusing so much on biodiversity loss? These studies say that, on average in samples across the world, roughly equal numbers of sites are increasing in species richness and decreasing. Maria Dornelas is the ecologist, from the University of Lisbon and the University of St Andrews, at the centre of this research and she joins me to elaborate. It should be mentioned right at the start that Maria is not suggesting that biodiversity loss is not a problem, but she explains why she thinks we are doing conservation a disservice by focusing on it the way we do. Maria emphasized the importance of nuance in conversations about conservation, and this discussion is an illustration of the importance of avoiding too much generalization and simplification. Links to resources: Looking back on biodiversity change: lessons for the road ahead - 2023 article by Maria and colleagues. Assemblage Time Series Reveal Biodiversity Change but Not Systematic Loss - Maria's 2014 paper in Science, which announced the surprising results of her research. BioTIME - Global database of assemblage time series for quantifying and understanding biodiversity change. Inside Biodiversity - Related IDIV podcast that is referenced in the intro to this episode. Visit www.case4conservation.com
56. Conservation in Ukraine: How? And why? (Marine Elbakidze)
Although we all have our problems, war is usually not among them. But if you do live in a war-torn country like Ukraine, war is everyones’s problem. And yet, in Ukraine at least, somehow life goes on including activities like conservation of the environment. The question is how, and why, given the many, more urgent, priorities. Marine Elbakidze is an Associate Professor at Lviv University, who focuses on sustainable landscape management, forest governance, and the social-ecological systems approach to environmental conservation. A year and a half ago she left a comfortable job in Sweden to return to Ukraine and practice her profession in her home country despite its ongoing war. Links to resources Understanding the impact of the war on people-nature relationships in Ukraine - An article that Marine recently published in the journal, Ecosystem Services, which is in line with the discussion. Visit www.case4conservation.com
55. What's the risk of fads in conservation? (Kent Redford)
Conservation competes with a variety of other societal priorities and interests for funding and for attention. As a result, conservation projects, programmes and even broader concepts are frequently “packaged” in ways that prioritize grabbing attention. But promoting or marketing conservation initiatives in this way carries certain risks. Among them is the risk of being short-lived and without a real basis in the substance of the actual initiative – in other words a fad . Another is the risk of losing what has already been learned, when initiatives are “re-packaged” under a new buzzword. Kent Redford is the principal at Archipelago Consulting, and previously Director of the Wildlife Conservation Society Institute in New York. In 2013 Kent published a paper in the journal, Conservation Biology to flag his concerns about conservation fads. I called him up to revisit this topic, because it relates quite closely to my increasing concern about conservation buzzwords. Links to resources Fads, Funding, and Forgetting in Three Decades of Conservation – A relevant publication in the journal, Conservation Biology, which Kent lead-authored in 2013. Visit www.case4conservation.com
54. What does Trump 2.0 mean for the environment? (Quill Robinson)
America’s reelection of Donald Trump has brought about all manner of changes in US and global politics. Some have a direct effect on environmental issues while many more may be indirectly consequential. The media, it seems, has reacted mostly with horror and predictions of disaster, and there are probably any number of commentators willing to echo those sentiments on a podcast. It might be more interesting though, and perhaps more informative, to hear the voice of a less critical environmentalist. Quill Robinson is an Associate Fellow at the Center for Strategic & International Studies (CSIS), a Washington DC-based think tank, and Assistant Director of the institute's Energy Security and Climate Change Program. He was a guest on the podcast three years back and was kind enough to accept another invitation, to weigh in on this topic. Visit www.case4conservation.com
53. Shouldn't we reframe environmental narratives? (Ragini Prasad)
Among most legacy media outlets and on social media, narratives about environmental issues, as well as social issues, are noticeably more extreme than they used to be. From activists to academics and from organizations to corporations, it has become common to hear phrases like “shattering Earth's natural limits”, “ecological meltdown”, and “boiling oceans”. Much of this rhetoric comes from a place of genuine concern and it usually contains important elements of truth. But it’s also often emotive and inaccurate, and there is reason to believe that it could be causing more harm than good. Ragini Prasad , an environmental engineer turned coach for leaders and changemakers, has long challenged the apocalyptic narrative surrounding our environmental discourse. She wants to calm these conversations and empower individuals to rediscover their agency. In this episode, Ragini emphasizes the importance of openness to new perspectives and points out that every existential crisis presents an opportunity for individual and collective evolution. She advocates for organic change—change that naturally emerges when we align ourselves with principles of life, resilience, and hope. Visit www.case4conservation.com
52. What’s all the fuss about the EU Nature Restoration Law? (Brian MacSharry)
It’s not often that biodiversity legislation grabs international headlines, but thats what happened repeatedly in 2024 with the European Union’s new Nature Restoration Law. It happened first because of the ambitious nature of the law; and then because of the political tussle around its rejection and eventual approval. Along the way it gathered a trail of detractors and supporters, and has raised hopes as well as concerns, depending on who you speak to. The law’s overarching target is for Member States to put in place restoration measures in at least 20% of the EU's land areas and 20% of its sea areas by 2030. Brian MacSharry , who was also my guest for episode 10 on protected areas, is Head of the Nature and Biodiversity Group at the European Environment Agency and he has had a birds-eye view of the development of the law. He kindly agreed to respond to some of the critiques of the law, but first he goes into some detail about its content and its journey through the political process. Links to resources Nature Restoration Law - Outline of the law on the website of the European Commission Visit www.case4conservation.com
51. What's all this talk about biodiversity credits? (Harrison Carter)
From time to time certain concepts rise to prominence in biodiversity conservation circles, and some of these follow in the footsteps of climate change analogs. One such concept is biodiversity credits. Biodiversity credits are a mechanism that allow for biodiversity conservation or restoration activities to derive a revenue stream through the production and sale of a quantifiable unit of improvement in biodiversity. Despite the technical and philosophical challenges involved in trading in biodiversity credits, or even defining a single unit, biodiversity credits are being used to offset damages to biodiversity. And given the explosion of private and public interest in biodiversity credits, they are worthy of further exploration. Helping us to explore them is Harrison Carter , an interdisciplinary conservation scientist at the University of Oxford’s Biology Department. Harrison has studied biodiversity credits in detail and shares his personal views on this complex topic. This is a fairly technical conversation, but non-conservationists should still find it interesting, and it gets easier as it goes along. We talk about the good and the bad around biodiversity credits, starting with a broad description of the concept. Links to resources: What is a unit of nature? A webpage from the University of Oxford's Department of Biology about biodiversity credits including Harrison's work What is a unit of nature? Measurement challenges in the emerging biodiversity credit market - 2024 paper in the peer-reviewed jouirnal, PLOS ONE Visit www.case4conservation.com
50. How do we get to a more sustainable society? (Sharachchandra Lele)
Half a century ago a group of more than 2,000 scientists signed a warning of environmental crisis and nuclear war. Named after the French town where it was compiled, the “Menton Message” turned out to be somewhat hyperbolic in its environmental predictions, and did not account for some of humankind’s remarkable developmental progress over the following decades. However, some of its concerns certainly remain prescient today. And so another, smaller, group of scientists convened, on the 50-year anniversary of the Menton Message, to revisit and modernize some of its assertions. The resulting document is “A letter to fellow citizens of Earth”, which was also summarized in an article for the journal “Nature”. It makes three key points: “individualistic, materialistic, exploitative short-term thinking has led us to lose sight of the public good” “a focus on economic growth distracts from achieving well-being and happiness… and… destroys our shared resources” “current economic, political and social institutions are failing us” Although the new letter acknowledges some of the progress that we have made since the Menton Message, it emphasizes the threats and asserts the urgent need for change. Sharachchandra Lele is one of the two main authors of the 2022 letter, and the Nature article. I pushed him on the accuracy of some of the letter’s claims and assertions. The resulting conversation interrogates different aspects of the letter, and questions the idea that we are on completely the wrong track to make things right. Our conversation jumps around a bit and does not follow the sequence of the letter. But it’s about more than the letter. It’s about the notion that we need to drastically change the way we run the planet and how to affect those changes. This episode and episode 48 with Ron Bailey function as counter-points to each other, so they can be listened to as a set. Links to resources The Menton Message - The original French version of the message (the English is probably available online somewhere) A letter to fellow citizens of Earth - The follow-up to the Menton Message, compiled by Sharad and others Fifty years after UN environment summit, researchers renew call for action - 2022 correspondence in the journal, Nature, co-authored by Sharad, and summarizing "A letter to fellow citizens of Earth" Visit www.case4conservation.com
49. Should we worry about zombie organizations? (Julia Gray)
International organizations, or “IOs” for short, are typically organizations to which multiple countries belong as members. They cover virtually every aspect of human endeavor and there are many that are related to environmental protection. International organizations may influence our lives quite profoundly and yet, outside our own field, we might struggle to name more than a few of them. Furthermore, it has been proposed that most of them are not functioning entities, but rather so-called“zombie organizations”. That’s what Julia Gray has suggested. Julia is an associate professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania, who has been researching zombie organizations for years. She joins me to explain how zombie organizations come about; why we don’t notice them; and what are their consequences. Links to resources Life, Death, or Zombie? The Vitality of International Organizations - A 2018 article on the topic of zombie organizations, in International Studies Quarterly The Montreal Protocol - Background on The Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer, to which we refer in the episode CARICOM - This is a link to the website of the Caribbean Community, to which Julia refers at the end of the episode Visit www.case4conservation.com
