Cleaning Up: Leadership in an Age of Climate Change

Indonesia is facing a defining question: can it continue to grow its economy while making the shift towards a greener future? In this episode of Cleaning Up, guest host Marie Cheong speaks with Sandiaga Uno, chair of Mutuagung Lestari International and former Deputy Governor of Jakarta and Minister of Tourism, about Indonesia’s potential to become a major player in the green economy, and why the country’s natural resources, growing energy needs and entrepreneurial ecosystem could create significant opportunities for climate solutions and investment. They explore whether green investing could be the next major growth opportunity, why the economics need to stack up, and how moving beyond the idea of a “green premium” towards “green discounts” could make sustainable business models more competitive. From the challenge of moving away from coal while meeting rising energy demand, to the potential of carbon credits and nature-based solutions, the conversation looks at what it will take to turn Indonesia’s green potential into real economic and environmental value and what investors should consider before taking the plunge. Topics covered in this episode: Indonesia’s green growth potential Green investing’s next growth cycle Green premiums vs. green discounts Politics and the energy transition Moving beyond coal Carbon credits and nature-based solutions Turning green potential into profits What green investors should look for Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links Sandiaga Uno’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandiaga-salahuddin-uno-7803b642a/ Saratoga: https://saratoga-investama.com/ Sandiaga’s article for the Center for International Relations and Sustainable Development: https://cirsd.org/horizon-article/from-rebuilding-to-refining-2/ Mutuagung Lestari Tbk (MUTU): https://mutucertification.com/en/ Subscribe to the Cleaning Up Newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com Acronyms: MUTU: Mutuagung Lestari International JETP: Just Energy Transition Partnership SBY: Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, previous President of Indonesia Chapters 00:00 Intro 00:51 About Indonesia 13:03 Saratoga’s Evolution 20:47 Green Discounts 26:18 Energy Transition 32:08 Rising Energy Demand 37:14 Growth and Policy 43:23 Carbon Credits 52:33 Nature-Based Solutions 55:21 Climate Investing 01:02:31 Outro

One of the biggest questions when it comes to the brutal and drawn-out Russia-Ukraine war is how it can be brought to an end, and crucially, could it ever be replaced by a stable peace? To understand this, we have to ask not just where we are now, but how we got here. For episode 03 of our Deep Dive Ukraine, Michael Liebreich is in Kyiv with John E. Herbst, Senior Director of the Atlantic Council’s Eurasia Centre and former US Ambassador to Ukraine, to explore the origins of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the chance for a stable peace, Russia and Ukraine’s vulnerabilities, and the role of NATO. They also examine the changing US approach to military support and negotiations, and the risks of a peace deal that forces Ukraine to surrender territory. Topics covered in this episode: Why Putin invaded Ukraine Ukraine’s strikes on Russian oil infrastructure NATO expansion and Russian aggression The legacy of the Orange Revolution The cracks in Putin’s regime Trump’s shifting approach to peace The risks of territorial concessions Can Russia’s regime collapse? Links: John E. Herbst’s bio: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/expert/john-e-herbst/ Atlantic Council Eurasia Center: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/programs/eurasia-center Michael’s Substack on Ukraine striking Russian oil refineries: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/why-ukraine-should-keep-striking Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com MAP - Membership Action Plan FSB - Federal Security Service (Russia) Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Chapters: 00:00 Intro 02:15 The Orange Revolution 06:45 Putin’s Ambitions 11:00 NATO and Ukraine 16:30 US Policy Shifts 22:00 Ukraine’s Oil Strikes 26:00 Sanctions Hit Russia 29:00 Cracks in Putin’s Regime 36:00 Ukraine’s Winter 39:00 Paths to Peace 44:27 Outro

The world needs more metals than ever before, but can the mining industry deliver the resources responsibly? The energy transition depends on the mining industry, yet the sector faces hard questions over coal, carbon emissions, environmental damage and the rights of the communities whose land and resources it extracts. This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich puts those questions directly to Rohitesh ‘Ro’ Dhawan, President and CEO of the International Council on Mining and Metals (ICMM). Can mining companies credibly commit to net-zero 2050 while continuing to produce coal? Are they taking sufficient responsibility for the emissions generated by the products they sell? And can voluntary industry standards deliver meaningful accountability, or is the industry being trusted to police itself? Michael and Ro also touch on Indigenous consent, the lengthy process of permitting new mines, the economics of mineral processing and the challenge of electrifying some of the world’s largest machines. Topics covered: Responsible mining and global standards Mining's role in the energy transition Coal production and Scope 3 emissions Tailings dams and industrial safety Indigenous rights and community consent Faster permitting without weaker safeguards Africa's mineral wealth and value chains Electrifying giant mining trucks China's dominance in mineral refining AI, automation and smarter extraction Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links : Rohitesh Dhawan’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rohiteshdhawan/ ICMM: https://www.icmm.com/ Mining Indaba 2027: https://miningindaba.com/ Mark Cutifani on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P50A_NfgE2A Subscribe to the Cleaning Up newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms : NGO: Non-Governmental Organisation PRI: Principles for Responsible Investment ESG: Environmental, Social, and Governance R&D: Research and Development GFRP: Glass Fibre Reinforced Polymer Chapters : 00:00 Intro 04:12 ICMM's Role 09:38 Tailings Dam Safety 13:01 Investor Accountability 16:13 Global Mining Standards 22:47 Coal and Emissions 31:20 Permitting New Mines 38:17 Who Benefits from Mining? 42:04 Smelting Economics 47:38 Moving Up Value Chains 51:29 Electrifying Mine Equipment 56:06 Mining Technology Breakthroughs 01:01:12 Outro

Can you make energy investments work in a country at war? Since Russia’s full-scale invasion in 2022, repeated attacks on Ukraine’s energy infrastructure have devastated its power system. By spring 2024, the country’s dispatchable generating capacity had fallen from 38 GW before the war to just 12 GW, leaving electricity in short supply and heating disrupted for many households. For this week’s Deep Dive Ukraine, Michael Liebreich is in Kyiv speaking to Andrii Gerus, Chair of the Ukrainian Parliament's Committee on Energy, Housing and Utility Services, and Dmytro Boroday, Partner at Horizon Capital, about the race to rebuild Ukraine's energy infrastructure, and the capital needed to make it happen. They examine how Ukraine is attracting international investors into wind, solar and battery storage, why distributed generation makes commercial as well as strategic sense, and how political risk insurance and development finance institutions are helping unlock projects. They also discuss the regulatory reforms needed to attract private capital, the challenge of corruption, and the potential for Ukraine to export electricity to neighbouring European markets. Topics covered in this episode: Ukraine's energy system under attack The shift to distributed generation Why renewables strengthen energy resilience What winter is like to live through Financing energy projects during war War risk insurance for private investors Attracting international capital into Ukraine Ukraine's future in European electricity markets Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links: Andrii Gerus’ bio: https://forumkyiv.org/en/speakers/andrii-gerus Dmytro Boroday’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmitryboroday/ Horizon Capital: https://horizoncapital.com.ua/ European Energy Community fund: https://www.energy-community.org/Ukraine/Fund/overview.html Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms: CHP: Combined Heat and Power TSO: Transmission System Operator DSO: Distribution System Operators IRR: Internal Rate of Return IC: Investment Committee GP: General Partner LP: Limited Partner EBRD: European Bank for Reconstruction Development IFC: International Finance Corporation DFI: Direct Foreign Investment PPA: Power Purchasing Agreement BESS: Battery Energy Storage System MIGA: Multilateral Investment Guarantee Agency Chapters: 0:00 Intro 1:06 Ukraine's Energy Crisis 3:29 Soviet Energy System 6:46 War Damage 10:09 Distributed Energy 13:31 Attracting Investors 17:03 War Risk Insurance 21:19 Corruption and Reform 27:04 Investing in Reconstruction 35:16 Financing New Renewables 41:03 Investing During War 47:26 Insurance Against War 51:26 Invitation To Investors 53:58 Outro

The world is facing a new era of geopolitical instability, rising energy costs and declining development finance. For many countries, access to reliable, affordable energy is no longer just an economic priority, it is a question of security. Recorded in New York during the United Nations General Assembly and Climate Week, this episode of Cleaning Up sees guest host Ana Rovzar, Chief of Staff at the Global Renewables Alliance, speak with Alexander De Croo, former Prime Minister of Belgium and now Administrator of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP). They explore how renewable energy can reduce dependence on volatile fossil fuel markets, how decentralised energy systems can strengthen resilience, and what Ukraine’s experience reveals about protecting critical energy infrastructure. The conversation also examines how to attract investment in grids and clean energy, the decline in development assistance, and AI’s potential to accelerate progress. Topics covered in this episode: Energy security as national security Renewables and fossil fuel dependence Financing the global energy transition Ukraine's decentralised energy reconstruction Why grids are holding back progress De-risking investment in emerging markets Turning climate targets into action AI's potential to accelerate development Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links: Alexander De Croo’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexanderdecroo/ Ana Rovzar’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ana-rovzar-2546b149/ Achim Steiner on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2prrV1dPSUI Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Michael Liebreich’s Pragmatic Climate Reset: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-i/ Acronyms: UNDP: United Nations Development Programme UNGA: United Nations General Assembly UNEP: United Nations Environmental Programme ODA: Official Development Assistance SDG: Sustainable Development Goal OECD: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development Chapters: 00:00 Intro 04:56 UNDP’s Mission 07:11 Rethinking Development 14:19 Energy Security 17:39 Grids and Resilience 25:52 From Ambition to Action 28:23 Financing the Transition 36:44 Development and Security 41:27 De-risking Investment 45:05 UN Funding 50:06 AI and Development 57:03 Outro

It's been over four and a half years since Russia unleashed its full-scale invasion of Ukraine, and still the war shows no sign of stopping. This week on Cleaning Up, we launch a new Deep Dive looking at Ukraine and how its people and energy systems cope through the war. In this first episode, Michael Liebreich travels to Kyiv to find out what is happening on the ground. How are people coping with these desperate and difficult circumstances? How is the energy system coping? What can we in the international community do to help? And what do we need to learn from Ukraine's energy workers, how have they managed to keep the lights on? In Kyiv, Michael meets Oleksandr Tolokonnikov, Deputy Head of the Kherson Regional Military Administration, to find out how a region on the frontlines is coping with constant bombardment from Russian drones and missiles. He also speaks with Sorina Seitvelieva and Emine Emirsalieva, co-owners of Musafir, a Crimean Tatar restaurant that’s become known as a resilience hub, keeping people fed and warm during winter. And he ventures to an electricity substation under renovation, where he is shown around Oleksandr Kozhukhar, head of the high-voltage network operations department at DTEK Kyiv Grids. Oleksandr tells Michael how he keeps his team safe as they repair Kyiv’s battered electricity system, and why it’s so dangerous being an energy worker in Ukraine. From backup generators and emergency repairs to the challenges of protecting critical infrastructure from drones and missiles, the episode explores what resilience looks like in practice. It also asks what the rest of the world can learn from Ukraine’s experience, and what support is needed as the country prepares for another winter of war. Topics discussed in this episode: Energy workers repairing infrastructure under fire Preparing Ukraine’s energy system for winter What life is like under constant drone attacks Kherson’s fight to survive, and why civilians refuse to leave How local businesses are coping with damaged energy infrastructure Thanks to all those who made this episode possible. In particular, Imogen Payter, Heather Buchanan and UK Friends of Ukraine, who've led over 30 parliamentary trips to Kyiv. Gary Edwards and the team at Frontier Global for keeping us safe. Special mention goes to Dominic Culverwell at the Kyiv Independent and Maria Vlokh for her help with translation. Jo Jagger for making sure it happened, the rest of the Cleaning Up team and our Leadership Circle. And to Oscar Boyd, who produced, filmed and edited this episode. Leadership Circle Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links Oleksandr Tolokonnikov’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oleksandr-tolokonnikov/ Unbreakable Kherson book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unbreakable-Kherson-Ukrainian-Wartime-Resilience/dp/B0H6CYRFH7 DTEK Group: https://dtek.com/en/ Musafir restaurant: https://www.musafir.com.ua/en/ UK Friends of Ukraine: https://friendsofukraine.uk/ Kyiv Independent: https://kyivindependent.com/ Sign up to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com “мета ”: Ukrainian meaning goal/purpose/aim Chapters 00:00 Intro 01:40 Journey Into Ukraine 04:15 Life During War 05:55 The Kherson Frontline 09:26 Community Resilience 12:38 Preparing For Winter 13:31 Energy Security Lessons 15:04 The Drone Warfare Threat 19:03 Life In Kyiv 20:40 Musafir Restaurant 29:45 Keeping Ukraine Powered 35:35 Lessons For Europe 37:49 Outro

There's an old joke that energy from nuclear fusion is 30 years away and always will be. For many decades, the industry did little to spoil the fun, running mammoth and unwieldy research projects, hoovering up a few billion dollars every science funding cycle and announcing breakthroughs that were scientifically interesting, but did little to move us towards actual production of electricity. Then three things happened. First, perhaps emboldened by Elon Musk's successful disruption of the space industry with SpaceX, a bunch of wealthy investors started to invest in much nimbler startups. Second, in December 2022, the National Ignition Facility at the US's Lawrence Livermore National Lab announced that it had finally got more energy out of a fusion experiment than it had put in. And third, AI exploded on the scene, offering dramatic acceleration in everything. These developments have turned the slow-moving world of fusion on its head. Over $14 billion has now flowed into fusion startups, and that is on top of the tens of billions already committed to national and international programs, like the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) in France, the UK's Spherical Tokamak for Energy Production (STEP) and a variety of US national labs. This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with the director of one of those labs. Professor Sir Steven Cowley has been entrusted with leading one of the jewels in the US's scientific crown. He has dedicated his academic career to trying to make fusion energy work, and he's been known to joke that he hopes it does so before he dies. Michael and Steven discuss the breakthrough experiments that have shown fusion is possible, why getting from a successful experiment to a commercial power station is such a huge leap, and whether fusion can ever deliver affordable, dispatchable electricity. Steven puts forward the idea that fusion might have a Theranos moment, where over-promises in the industry come back to bite. Topics discussed in this episode: How fusion actually works From experiments to electricity Laser versus magnetic fusion The commercial fusion challenge How AI can transform fusion research Fusion versus renewables and batteries Leadership Circle Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links: Steven's TED Talk from 2009: https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_cowley_fusion_is_energy_s_future Steven’s talk at IPAM 2026: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USPd6zvA8pk Steven's talk at SOSV Steven’s talk at DeepTech Live, 2026: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-kb3784BPY Princeton Plasma Physics Lab: https://www.pppl.gov/ Hax Plasma Forge Incubator: https://hax.co/ Aneeqa Khan on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhEoMd7DEho Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms: ITER: International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor STEP: Spherical Tokamak for Energy Production JET: Joint European Torus TFTR: Tokamak Fusion Test Reactor DOE: Department of Energy (US) FLiBe: Fluoride Lithium Beryllium NIF: National Ignition Facility Chapters: 00:00 Intro 03:24 Career in fusion 06:39 Commercial fusion 10:26 Laser fusion 18:40 Breeding tritium 23:33 Fusion startups 25:24 Laser versus magnets 29:21 Magnetic fusion 35:35 Reactor optimisation 40:35 AI controls fusion 44:52 Spherical tokamaks 46:33 Reversed-field fusion 49:24 Private fusion 53:07 Fusion economics 56:30 The future 57:14 Outro

This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington is joined by Peter Cox, Professor of Climate System Dynamics at the University of Exeter and Director of the Global Systems Institute. A former lead author of the IPCC climate reports, Peter has spent decades studying the complex feedbacks between the climate, carbon cycle and natural world. They delve into some of the biggest questions in climate science today: Is the planet warming faster than we thought? What is the role of forcing versus feedback? How much of the recent change is being driven by external forces, including the decline of reflective sulphur pollution, and how much is the climate system responding in ways that amplify warming? They explore why the Earth is reflecting less sunlight back into space, the growing Earth energy imbalance, climate sensitivity, tipping points in the Amazon and Arctic, and whether solar radiation modification should remain taboo. Topics discussed in this episode: Why the Earth is darkening Is global warming accelerating? The Earth’s energy imbalance Climate sensitivity and feedbacks Amazon and Arctic tipping points The hidden cooling from pollution Geoengineering the planet Positive clean energy tipping points Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links: Professor Peter Cox’s bio: https://experts.exeter.ac.uk/962-peter-cox/about Professor Cox’s publications: https://experts.exeter.ac.uk/962-peter-cox/publications Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com Acronyms: IPCC: Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change CMIP6: Coupled Model Intercomparison Project 6 CERES: Clouds and the Earth's Radiant Energy System ARIA: Advanced Research and Invention Agency SO2: Sulphur Dioxide RCP8.5: Representative Concentration Pathway 8.5 SSP5-85: Shared Socioeconomic Pathway 5 - Radiative Forcing 8.5 IAM: Integrated Assessment Model AMOC: Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation PV: Photovoltaics SRM: Solar Radiation Modification Chapters 00:00 Coming Up 01:08 Professor Peter Cox 03:40 Climate System Modelling 07:36 Climate Tipping Points 17:04 Accelerating Global Warming 18:57 Earth’s Energy Imbalance 22:13 The Darkening Planet 37:59 Rethinking Climate Scenarios 45:59 Positive Tipping Points 52:24 Geoengineering The Planet 01:05:14 Outro

Around two-thirds of the energy we put into today’s energy system ends up as rejected heat. So are we measuring the energy transition all wrong? Professor Jan Rosenow joins Michael Liebreich to unpack the “primary energy fallacy”: why focusing on the energy going into the system can obscure the useful energy we actually get out. They explore why electrification can dramatically reduce energy demand, and what genuine systems thinking means for efficiency, waste heat and infrastructure. They also examine hydrogen versus electrification, including Jan’s review of more than 60 independent studies on hydrogen for heating, why hydrogen continues to attract support despite its disadvantages in many end uses, and how incumbent industries resist technological change. Key topics discussed: The primary energy fallacy Why useful energy matters The hidden inefficiency of fossil fuels Electrification and shrinking energy demand Rethinking energy efficiency through systems thinking Making better use of waste heat Why energy statistics can misrepresent the transition Hydrogen vs electrification for heating Why incumbent technologies resist change Leadership Circle Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links: Jan Rosenow’s bio: https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/find-an-expert/professor-jan-rosenow Jan Rosenow’s Substack: https://janrosenow.substack.com/ Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Sankey Diagram: https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/sites/flowcharts/files/2026-08/2024-us-energy-flowchart-homepage.jpg Michael Liebreich’s “The Five Superheroes Of The Transition” article: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-ii-easier/ Our World In Data Energy Consumption Chart: https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption Innovation and Its Enemies: Why People Resist New Technologies book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Innovation-Its-Enemies-People-Technologies/dp/019046703 Jonathan Maxwell on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcN3Bqq8ehA Rob Dunn on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w Jorgo Chatzimarkakis on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NCiEhprSOc Subscribe to Cleaning Up’s newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms: LNG: Liquefied Natural Gas IEA: International Energy Agency, EIA: Energy Information Administration. IIASA: International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis OECD: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development Chapters: 00:00 Introduction 07:34 Primary Energy Fallacy 15:14 Fossil Fuel Inefficiency 24:44 Rethinking Energy Efficiency 27:05 Using Waste Heat 35:00 Misleading Energy Statistics 43:12 Hydrogen vs Electrification 49:48 Resisting Technological Change 58:00 Hydrogen Europe 01:03:14 Outro

More than 80% of the world’s advanced AI compute is concentrated in the US and China. For Europe and other middle powers, the question may no longer be how to win the AI race, but how to avoid becoming dangerously dependent on those that do. This week on Cleaning Up, James Cameron, Chair of Cleaning Up’s Editorial Council, takes over as guest host. He speaks with Sam Winter-Levy, Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and Afonso Salema, CEO of Exus Digital and founder of TerraByte Data Centers, about how compute is becoming a strategic resource. They explore how access to power and the grid is shaping where billions of dollars of AI infrastructure gets built, and how data centres could become a source of geopolitical leverage. They also discuss the security and public backlash facing this critical infrastructure, and whether AI’s enormous appetite for electricity could ultimately accelerate the clean energy transition. Topics covered in this episode: Compute as a strategic resource The US-China race for AI Why Europe is falling behind AI’s rapidly growing electricity demand Where the world builds data centres Protecting data centres from attack Weaponising chips and AI access The political backlash against data centres Can AI accelerate clean energy? Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links: Afonso Salema’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/afonso-salema-336320/ Sam Winter-Levy’s bio: https://carnegieendowment.org/people/sam-winter-levy James Cameron’s bio: https://www.james-cameron.co.uk/bio Cleaning Up 235. Inside Start Campus, Europe’s largest data centre: https://youtu.be/juAyLAUmU3w James Cameron on Cleaning Up in 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn7GKiW5E4k James Cameron on Cleaning Up in 2025: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPPjAbSxl5c Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ The Stanford 2026 AI index: https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report Edelman Trust in AI poll: https://www.edelman.com/trust/2025/trust-barometer/report-tech-sector Acronyms: AWS: Amazon Web Services NIMBY: "Not In My Back Yard" Chapters: 00:00 Introduction 02:02 AI, security, geopolitics 05:01 Compute as power 11:34 The global AI race 14:07 Building data centres 18:02 Defending critical infrastructure 23:53 Who pays for security? 29:24 Designing for resilience 32:48 Weaponising AI access 40:02 Data centre backlash 49:56 The balance of power 54:09 Can Europe catch up? 59:43 AI and clean energy 01:04:01 Outro

Can Mexico build an electric car for $8,000, and use it to create an entirely new domestic industry? This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington visits Mexico City to sit down with Roberto Capuano, director of the Olinia Project, and discuss the state-backed effort to develop a new generation of affordable electric mini-vehicles. Roberto explains why Olinia is designing small EVs specifically around the needs of Mexican cities, how partnerships with Chinese suppliers could accelerate technology transfer, and why price rather than subsidies could ultimately drive EV adoption. They also discuss Mexico's ambitions beyond its domestic market, with potential demand across Latin America and even East Africa. Topics discussed in this episode: Why Mexico wants its own carmaker Electrifying Mexico City's public transport The rise of electric mini-cars Building an $8,000 Mexican EV Why Olinia is partnering with China The state's role in carmaking Building a Latin American EV market Can Olinia deliver by 2027? Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links: Roberto Capuano’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roberto-capuano/ Olinia Project: https://www.olinia.auto/ Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ OEM: Original Equipment Manufacturer BRT: Bus Rapid Transit R&D: Research & Development ICE: Internal Combustion Engine Chapters: 00:00 Intro 02:15 Electrifying Mexico City 10:33 Olinia's Origins 11:58 Mini Electric Cars 18:48 Made in Mexico 21:25 State-Led Industry 30:33 Chinese Supply Chains 36:31 The $8,000 EV 40:01 Charging Infrastructure 42:54 Global Ambitions 45:43 Scaling Olinia 48:40 Software and Autonomy 50:01 Political Longevity 55:31 Outro

Can the Philippines become a testbed for Southeast Asia’s clean-tech future? Kicking off Season 19 of Cleaning Up, guest host Marie Cheong meets Jaime Z. Urquijo, Urban Estates Group Head at Ayala Land, one of the Philippines is largest real estate and development companies. Ayala Land is a subsidiary of the Ayala Corporation, which has been part of the Philippines' economic story for almost 200 years, and ACEN, its energy platform, has gone from a standing start in 2011 to more than 7GW of renewable capacity across Asia-Pacific. Marie and Jaime explore how the Philippines can build cleaner energy, transport and cities from the start while its economy and population continue to grow. They discuss replacing coal with renewables, retiring coal plants early, building resilient cities and making growth less carbon-intensive. From batteries and rooftop solar to green steel and electric buses, they ask what it will take for the Philippines to leapfrog to a cleaner, more resilient economy. Topics covered in this conversation: The Philippines' clean-energy challenge Can growth be decoupled from emissions? Making corporate sustainability profitable ACEN's renewable-energy transformation Southeast Asia's renewable-energy gold rush Can coal plants retire early? Building resilient cities for climate Electric buses and better transport Green steel and cleaner construction Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Jaime Urquijo’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaime-urquijo-96526799/ Ayala Corporation: https://ayala.com/ Ayala Land: https://ayalaland.com/ ACEN: https://www.acenrenewables.com/about-us/ Monsoon Wind Project: https://www.monsoonwindasia.com/ Marie's past appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/RE2ZeGd8aaI Acronyms: WBCSD: World Business Council for Sustainable Development BPO: Business Process Outsourcing SBTI: Science Based Targets Initiative. MDC: Makati Development Corporation. EDC: The Energy Development Corporation EPIRA: Electric Power Industry Reform Act FIT: Feed-In Tariff ETM: Energy Transition Mechanism BRT: Bus Rapid Transit System ICE: Internal Combustion Engine LGU: Local Government Unit Chapters: 00:00: Intro 04:34: The Philippines 07:49: Ayala's history 10:42: Sustainability strategy 16:16: Net zero 27:32: Energy liberalisation 34:09: Regional challenges 36:27: Coal retirement 42:07: Resilient cities 47:45: Green steel 52:14: Green construction 54:55: Innovation tailwinds 58:27: Energy decentralisation 59:07: Future growth 01:01:43: Outro

Australia has become a laboratory for the energy transition, what can the rest of the world learn? After two weeks travelling across Australia and meeting the leaders shaping its energy transition, Michael Liebreich got a close up view of the country’s transformation. For the final episode of Cleaning Up’s Deep Dive Australia series, the host becomes the guest as Anna Freeman of the Energy Efficiency Council turns the tables and puts Michael in the hot seat to ask him what he has learned. Michael divides his takeaways into the good, the less good and the “downright ugly”, from Australia’s extraordinary rooftop solar and battery uptake to its struggles with wind, transmission and diesel. He also asks whether the country really can become a clean energy superpower, and what its successes and failures can teach the rest of the world. Topics covered in this episode: Australia’s rooftop solar advantage Why batteries are beating gas The missing middle of electrification Can transmission keep up? Australia’s expensive wind problem The China challenge Breaking the diesel addiction Why EVs may be finally taking off Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Australia Deep Dive Episodes: Darren Miller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBhkBTZ9lSI&t=2s Chris Bowen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYtapcSdZOo&t=132s Marc England https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tKVSJcS_SI&t=2s Lily D'Ambrosio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVGL9vVTdeY Ross Garnaut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmcm2M5eRxk&t=35s David Pocock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgbq5r3XTJY Paul Simshauser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZKxb2TnD04 Martin Green: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgqXnnvlMFg Links: Anna Freeman’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annafreeman1/ The Energy Efficiency Council: https://eec.org.au Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Stats on Seaborne Trade of diesel: https://ieefa.org/resources/oil-shocks-expose-limits-monetary-policy John Pettigrew on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Lg1A958aA&t=5s Tim Meyerjürgens on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQgUuJ-dx78&t=16s Leo Birnbaum on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa-DHuPNEDg Andrew Forrest on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYQmEipY5Wc Acronyms: IRENA: International Renewable Energy Agency EMA: Energy Market Operator DNSP: Distribution Network Service Provider REZ: Renewable Energy Zones AEMO: Australian Energy Market Operator Chapters: 00:00: Intro 05:45: Solar Adoption 10:25: Big Batteries 13:41: The Missing Middle 19:26: Transmission Grids 21:35: Australia’s Wind Problem 32:43: China’s Superpower 40:53: The Diesel Addiction 45:24: EV Adoption 52:58 Lack Of Transparency 56:19 Michael’s Highlights 01:14:00: Outro

Around the world, factories making food, drink, pharmaceuticals and other everyday products rely on steam, often produced by fossil-fuel boilers. James Macnaghten, founder and CEO of Caldera, is betting that thermal batteries can provide a cheaper and more flexible alternative that stores electricity as heat, and delivers steam on demand. This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington visits Caldera's factory to see how it makes its heat batteries: combining recycled aluminium and iron ore pellets to create a long-lasting, efficient heat store. The technology is designed for industrial processes up to 200°C, which James sees as a major opportunity for electrification. They discuss how thermal storage can help factories manage peaks in demand, use electricity when it is cheap or abundant, and reduce pressure on congested grids. They also explore Caldera's plans to scale, its journey from domestic heating to industry, and why James believes a more pragmatic approach to electrification is needed. Topics discussed in this episode: The hidden opportunity in industrial heat How Caldera's heat batteries work Why steam still matters Heat pumps and thermal storage Managing industrial demand spikes Turning surplus power into heat Scaling a UK climate-tech company The case for pragmatic electrification Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: James Macnaghten’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-macnaghten Caldera: https://www.caldera.co.uk/ Professor Ning Li on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCUASv01bVY Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ JVs - Joint Ventures IP - Intellectual Property Chapters: 00:00: Intro 01:53: About Caldera Batteries 03:42: Heat Storage 09:47: Caldera Factory Tour 14:40: Funding Caldera 17:44: Scaling Up 25:37: Thermal Storage 29:02: Energy Price Shocks 30:27: Flexible Demand 35:22: UK Success Story 37:32: Outro

Solar was once dismissed as a marginal technology. Today, it is transforming the global energy system, and few people have done more to make that possible than Professor Martin Green. Innovations developed by Green and his research group can now be found in over 90% of all the solar panels in use today One of the pioneers of modern solar power, Green’s research has helped make solar panels dramatically more efficient and cheaper to produce. He joins Michael Liebreich to discuss how he got into solar, the breakthroughs that helped drive its extraordinary rise, and the remarkable story of how research carried out at an Australian university helped create the global solar manufacturing industry. They also look at where solar goes next, and whether the next generation of technology can make it even more powerful. Topics discussed in this episode The breakthroughs that changed solar Understanding solar cells and efficiency Racing NASA to new efficiency records Pioneering PERC and TOPCon technology How solar technology reached the market Suntech and the rise of Chinese solar The future of solar and batteries Which solar technology will dominate? Leadership Circle Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links Martin Green bio: https://www.unsw.edu.au/staff/martin-green Australian Centre for Advanced Photovoltaics: https://www.acap.org.au/ Professor Stephen Chu on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPmgA5cjhfk NREL National Renewable Energy Lab chart: https://www.nlr.gov/pv/interactive-cell-efficiency Subscribe to our newsletter: cleaninguppod.substack.com Acronyms: PERC - Passivated Emitter and Rear Cell TOPCon - Tunnel Oxide Passivated Contact NREL - National Renewable Energy Laboratory Chapters 00:00 - Intro 02:14 - UNSW Research Group 10:25 - Innovations in Solar 13:12 - PERC & TOPCon Explained 19:26 - Efficiency Records & NREL Chart 23:48 - Birth of Chinese Solar 30:21 - The First Solar Billionaire 36:23 - Perovskite and Tandem Cells 48:12 - Australia's Missed Chance 50:13 - Outro

Will AI break the grid? As hyperscalers race to build ever-larger data centres, electricity demand is soaring. The question is no longer whether power demand will grow, but by how much, how quickly, and whether the grid can deliver. This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Arshad Mansoor, President & CEO of the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), one of the world's leading energy research organisations. Together, they tackle one of the biggest questions facing the global energy system: how much electricity will AI really need, and can our power systems keep up? They debate the scale of AI-driven demand growth, whether the extraordinary investment by hyperscalers is justified, and how greater flexibility could allow data centres to connect faster without overwhelming the grid. They also discuss the growing public backlash against AI infrastructure, why winning local support may become the industry's biggest challenge, and whether nuclear power is truly the "get out of jail free card" many believe it to be or simply one part of a much bigger solution. Topics included in this episode: The race to power AI data centres Hyperscalers' trillion-dollar AI investment Can electricity grids keep pace with AI's rapid growth? Gigawatt demand forecasts Making data centres more flexible Public acceptance and the growing backlash against AI Nuclear power's role in the AI era What governments, utilities and investors should do next Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Arshad Mansoor’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arshad-mansoor-a2090b165/ EPRI, Electric Power Research Institute: https://www.epri.com/ Jigar Shah on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOaF-qQ_TU Varun Sivaram & Steve Smith on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kSrgRZUCwE Rob Dunn on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w&t=2s Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Papers referenced : DC Flex Mosaic: https://dcflex.epri.com/flex-mosaic/open-letter Win Win Watts: https://winwin.epri.com/en/introduction.html Make Electricity Cheap Again: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/make-electricity-cheap-again Acronyms: GPU: Graphics Processing Unit IPO: Initial Public Offering NESO: National Energy Systems Operator HVO: Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil SMR: Small Modular Reactor Chapters: 00:00 Intro 02:29 About EPRI 06:08 AI Power Demand 10:45 Gigawatt Debate 17:19 Hyperscaler Risk 26:15 Compute In Households 31:24 24/7 Data Power 38:28 Public Acceptance 41:39 Fear Of AI 49:39 A Nuclear Solution? 58:38 24/7 Reliable Power 01:08:00 Final Thoughts

Australia has one of the world's fastest-moving electricity systems. It leads the world in rooftop solar, has deployed grid-scale batteries at extraordinary speed, and is now starting to replace its ageing coal fleet with cleaner sources of energy. But as renewable costs rise and electricity demand grows, can the transition remain affordable while maintaining a reliable power system? This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Paul Simshauser, CEO of Iberdrola Australia, and one of Australia's leading energy economists. Drawing on decades of experience across electricity markets, networks and policy, Paul explains what makes Australia's power system unique, and what the rest of the world can learn from it. They discuss why rooftop solar has become so successful in Australia, how batteries are transforming electricity markets, and how the country's energy-only market encourages investment. They also explore the economics of replacing ageing coal plants, the costs of new renewable generation, the role of electricity pricing and demand tariffs, and what will be needed to build a resilient, affordable power system as Australia moves towards net zero. Topics discussed in this episode: The rooftop solar revolution How batteries are reshaping the grid Why solar is cheaper in Australia than elsewhere The challenges of retiring coal Whether renewables can stay affordable Building a resilient power system Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links : Paul Simshauser’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-simshauser-00106713/ Iberdrola Australia: https://www.iberdrola.com.au Link to Paul’s articles: https://experts.griffith.edu.au/18942-paul-simshauser/publications Malcolm Turnbull on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9CUGRHCswU&t=5s Marc England on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tKVSJcS_SI Darren Miller on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBhkBTZ9lSI&t=2s Tony Abbott on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_39HmAgq9RY&t=1s Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms : STC: Small-scale Technology Certificates CFD: Contract For Difference PPAs: Power Purchase Agreements IBGYBG: “I'll be gone, you'll be gone.” OEM: Original Equipment Manufacturer AEMO: Australian Electricity Market Operator LNG: Liquefied Natural Gas Chapters : 00:00 - Intro 02:28 - Paul's Background 04:07 - Iberdrola Australia 06:42 - Australia's Power System 09:15 - Battery Revolution 12:36 - Energy-Only Market 14:35 - Why Solar Succeeds 18:21 - Commercial Solar Challenge 24:30 - Ageing Coal Fleet 28:49 - Carbon Markets & Pricing 35:00 - Renewable Costs 39:18 - Future Demand 42:45 - Grid Resilience 48:00 - Outro

Microbes rarely feature in discussions about climate change, yet they play a central role in regulating greenhouse gases through the Earth's carbon, methane and nitrogen cycles. As the climate changes, understanding these natural processes is becoming increasingly important to develop new approaches to clean energy, agriculture and emissions reduction. This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington speaks with Professor Emeritus David Kirchman of the University of Delaware, one of the world's leading microbial ecologists and author of 'Microbes: the Unseen Agents of Climate Change.' They explore how microbes drive the carbon, methane and nitrogen cycles, how climate change is reshaping ecosystems from permafrost to coral reefs, and how microbial science could help tackle the climate crisis, from microbial fuel cells and lower-emissions agriculture to biofuels, methane reduction and even emerging forms of carbon removal and geoengineering Topics covered in this episode: The microbes shaping Earth's climate Ocean carbon cycle Methane-eating microbes Arctic warming impacts Coral reefs and climate resilience Low-carbon agriculture Microbes powering climate solutions Climate interventions Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: David Kirchman’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-kirchman-5925b331/ David’s book: Microbes, the Unseen Agents of Climate Change: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Microbes-Unseen-Agents-Climate-Change/dp/019768856X Merlin Sheldrake on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC-9ulSTnB4 Sea ice melting effect on microbes article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-77821-9 Background on James Lovelock's Gaia Hypothesis: https://courses.seas.harvard.edu/climate/eli/Courses/EPS281r/Sources/Gaia/Gaia-hypothesis-wikipedia.pdf DMS: Dimethyl Sulphide Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Chapters: 00:00 - Intro 00:45 - About David Kirchman 05:50 - What Are Microbes? 15:29 - Climate Cycles & Carbon 23:04 - Methane Microbes 29:01 - Climate Change 34:41 - Coral Reefs 41:02 - Microbe Climate Solutions 50:10 - Climate Engineering 01:00:28 - Outro

David Pocock is one of Australia's most influential politicians, working as the Senator of the Australian Capital Territory. He brings a distinctive perspective to some of the country's biggest debates, from climate policy and energy security to democratic reform and the future of work. A former captain of the Australian rugby team, David entered politics after years of speaking out on issues including climate change, equality and environmental protection. Four years into his Senate career, he joins Michael Liebreich to explain how independent politics works in practice, what he's hearing from voters across Australia, his campaign to tax natural gas exports, and why he believes the country's clean energy transition must deliver lower household bills as well as lower emissions. The conversation explores Australia's world-leading rooftop solar uptake, the barriers slowing electric vehicle adoption, and why David believes Australians deserve a greater return from the country's gas exports. They also look ahead to the rise of AI and data centres, asking whether governments are paying enough attention to the implications for jobs, tax revenues and energy demand. Topics covered in this week's episode: David’s journey from rugby player to Senator Australian voters' priorities Lowering household energy bills Australia's clean energy successes Why EV adoption lags Taxing Australia's gas exports Data centres and energy demand AI concerns and the future of work Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: David Pocock’s bio: https://www.davidpocock.com.au/about David Pocock “Chains himself to digger” news article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/30272670 Aksel Lund Svindal on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRc1VCBnVgI Alex Honnold on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwmQf0mhHkE Prince Albert of Monaco on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-eYHKpDBYU Håkan Agnevall (Wärtsilä) on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUYjGT55g5A Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms: C&I: Commercial and Industrial ICE: Internal Combustion Engine ACT: Australian Capital Territory Chapters: 00:00 Intro 01:48 From Rugby to Politics 11:46 Getting Arrested For Activism 16:35 What Voters Want 20:34 Rising Voter Frustration 26:16 Australia's Energy Report 28:57 Why EVs Lag Behind 31:19 Taxing Gas Exports 36:09 Data Centre Dilemma 39:46 AI vs Human Jobs 44:47 Delivering Real Results 49:44 Outro

The UK is heavily exposed to global energy markets and has some of the highest electricity prices in Europe. At the same time, vast amounts of heat generated across industry and infrastructure go unused. Whether it should be called "waste" is a matter of debate, but could making better use of the energy we already produce be one of the biggest untapped opportunities in the energy transition? This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Jonathan Maxwell, founder and CEO of SDCL, a specialist investment firm focused on energy efficiency. They explore why energy efficiency should be treated as a strategic resource, why “waste” heat could become one of Europe's most overlooked energy resources, and how Europe and the UK can strengthen its energy resilience following renewed tensions in the Strait of Hormuz. They discuss the economics of gas versus electricity, the rapid growth of AI-driven data centres and their power requirements, and how long-term infrastructure investment can help build a more resilient, affordable and efficient energy system. Topics covered in this episode: The Strait of Hormuz and Europe's energy security The UK's energy system and the cost of electrification Gas versus electricity pricing Debating “waste” heat and energy efficiency AI, data centres and growing power demand Powering and cooling next-generation infrastructure Infrastructure investment and portfolio management Europe's energy transition beyond the AI boom Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links : Jonathan Maxwell’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-maxwell-a121a533/ Jonathan on Cleaning Up 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN2YWPqBPHk Jonathan on Cleaning Up 2023: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OTbyOxYUpg Jonathan on Cleaning Up 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqrtr2lePM8 Jonathan’s substack: https://jonathanmaxwell.substack.com/ The Edge by Jonathan Maxwell: https://the-edge-book.com/product/the-edge-by-jonathan-maxwell/ SDCL: https://www.sdclgroup.com/ Ed Conway on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhvEExdYeEU Robert Dunn on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms: LNG: Liquified Natural Gas JCPOA: Joint and Comprehensive Plan of Action CHP: Combined Heat and Power PUE: Power Usage Effectiveness CCHP: Combined Cooling Heat and Power EBITDA: Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortisation Chapters : 00:00 - Europe's Energy Security 05:11 - Strait of Hormuz Impact 15:39 - Electrifying the UK 23:14 - Gas vs Electricity 28:56 - Waste Heat Debate 32:14 - Powering Data Centres 42:20 - AI Investment 46:42 - Cooling Data Centres 52:16 - Managing Energy Assets 01:06:47 - Outro