Betrayal Trauma Recovery

Are you wondering how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids…maybe even part of you is still hoping things will change…for the kids’ sake. That makes sense. In fact, here’s the five stages most women go through when thinking about leaving a toxic man. THE 5 STAGES OF HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP 1. THINGS GET SO BAD THAT YOU WONDER IF THERE’S SOMETHING BETTER Sometimes, things have to get really bad before you even start thinking about how to leave a toxic relationship when have kids and you realize things need to change. Maybe something big happens or things just keep getting worse and worse until you can’t ignore it anymore. It’s like waking up one day and realizing, “I can’t do this anymore.” Maybe you even discover he’s emotionally abusive. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. 2. YOU START TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT After you decide you can’t take it anymore, the next step in how to leave a toxic relationship is, to do something about it. This could be something as simple as journaling about what’s happening, so you can keep a clear mind or listening to a podcast that helps you feel less alone and gives you strategies. Doing something, even if it’s small, means you’re learning and getting stronger. 3. YOU DECIDE TO PROTECT YOURSELF Making changes in order to protect yourself can feel like crossing a bridge and knowing you can’t go back to the way things were before. Maybe you decide not to do something with the person who is hurting or scaring you, like not riding in the car with them when they’re angry and aggressive. Or you stop trying to explain how you’re feeling, especially if they use those feelings against you later. It could even mean moving away from them. 4. YOU START DEVELOPING NEW STRATEGIES FOR LIVING It’s not uncommon for women to start to feel a mix of greater clarity and emotional safety after making these changes. It can also be uncomfortable at first. You’re getting used to a new way of living. This time is for healing, finding out who you are, and starting to build toward a better life. You might start to rekindle old dreams, or work on your career. Little by little, as your confidence in yourself grows, things start to get better even if it’s hard. 5. YOU CAN SEE A CLEAR PATH TO THE PEACEFUL LIFE YOU WANT In the last step, you start to really believe you deserve and can have a happy life without being hurt. It feels like seeing the light at the end of a dark tunnel. You think about creating a safe home, doing things you enjoy, and being with people who treat you well. This step is all about going from surviving to living life well. Being able to visualize this life helps you make good choices for yourself as you move away from being hurt. It’s like a light guiding you to a future where you’re happy and safe. TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Janet. As we describe the processes we went through in determining how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids, listen for how you can protect yourself from his emotional abuse. As you’re listening, if you can’t quite visualize this. There is a map embedded in this transcript below. And you can see that map. I’ll share part of the story of how I discovered The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop Strategies . The strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced. Before I discovered these strategies. I was trying to leave a toxic relationship with kids, because my ex-husband, even eight years after divorce, was being emotionally abusive almost daily. He was messaging me all the time. And was counter-parenting. He canceled my kids’ medical appointments. He was trying to manipulate the situation so my kids wouldn’t take sports, so he didn’t have to pay for it. It was just constant stress and trauma. And I got really, really angry because I was like, I’m so good at boundaries. I was doing everything “right”. And the court wouldn’t help me, and clergy wouldn’t help me. I thought like, is there no way to actually live free from abuse? And people often said things like, well, you got to move on with your life. Why don’t you just get over it? You got divorced eight years ago, they’re thinking the abuse happened eight years ago, and I’m like, it happened today. When he messaged me today, he lied to me, and he tried to undermine my children. So I wondered how to stop emotional abuse from husband? THE COMMUNICATION TRAP WITH ABUSIVE EX-PARTNERS Anne: Janet before you enrolled in The Betrayal Trauma Workshop . Can you talk about all the things you tried, in knowing how to leave a toxic relationship with kids? Janet: A lot of us have gone through counseling, marriage therapy, or 1 2-Step for wives of pornography addicts , and most of the time they focus on our communication skills with our husbands or our exes. I felt that I could change the outcome if I could just communicate and explain it in a way that he could understand, treating him like he just didn’t know. We catch him in a lie, in real time, and we have full evidence. And we think if I point out, you just lied to me. He’s going to have an aha moment, own it. Hey, I’m so sorry. I totally just lied to you. And maybe do differently. So if I told him and explained it to him, it would stop. And the opposite happened every single time. In the Betrayal Trauma Workshop, one lesson talked about when he has access to communication to continue to abuse us. The problem is that communicating with them is a trap. Right in the beginning, when we started to share the kids 50/50 from both of our houses, and things were falling apart at dad’s house. THE TEMPTATION TO ARGUE & COMMUNICATE WITH ABUSERS Janet: And then I would get the kids back, and they would kind of unload all the things that had happened at dad’s house. I call him and say, hey, I can help you. You know, the mornings are chaotic. Can you set a timer? Wake yourself up at six, so you can wake the kids up at six thirty. the lunches pre-made, or teach the kids how to make their own lunches if you’re busy getting ready for work. And I thought it would help. Guess what happened? It just got worse, more chaos. Then he stopped waking the kids up altogether. They were late almost every day to school. If the kids would say anything, their dad would start to cry and say how sorry he was that he is trying his best. This is so hard, he’s working so hard, and he can’t seem to do anything right. His manipulation was so bad, so communication just doesn’t work. Anne: Yeah, and The Betrayal Trauma Workshop explains why. So I’ll leave that to the workshop, because it does a really good job of explaining why communication doesn’t help. And then what to do. Luckily, the workshop strategies can protect you from his emotional abuse in knowing how to leave a toxic relationship with kids without communicating anything to him. STRATEGIES FOR HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH KIDS Anne: It will teach you how to do strategic communication. So that if you communicate with him, the communication is protective. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is not a religious organization for many reasons. One of them is that we have clients from all over the world. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery team is interfaith, inter paradigm. We have women from different Christian faiths, other religions, agnostics, and atheists. Everybody is welcome here. I always hesitate to share my own religious experience, because their husband and clergy have spiritually abused so many women. Many women are still experiencing the effects of spiritual abuse . So they find scriptures or scriptural references to be very triggery and I absolutely do not blame them. So for women who find religious things to be a little triggery or for my agnostic or atheist or Muslim friends. If you can bear with me as I talk about deliverance in the context of Christianity, because this is how I discovered the workshop strategies. If you take The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop , all of it is secular. It’s not in the context of religion, and the principles work, no matter what your religion or paradigm is. If you’re interested in reading more about my study, you can see some of it at the back of the workshop Workbook . If you’re not interested in learning more about my study, you can just disregard those last few pages. I realized the court could not answer stop the emotional abuse from my husband? Or would not, they probably could, but they refused to do anything to help me. I went to my clergy and said, hey, our church does not tolerate abuse. What are you going to do to not tolerate this? ANNE BLYTHE’S PERSONAL JOURNEY TOWARD DELIVERANCE FROM ABUSE Anne: They literally just stared at me and blinked their eyes and didn’t know what to do. So I started praying. Everywhere in the scriptures, Christ is the Deliverer. He is the Savior. He delivers people from their enemies, saves people. So I thought, through my Savior, Jesus Christ, I should be able to get delivered. I didn’t have language for it at the time, but I was desperately trying to understand how to leave a toxic relationship and still protect myself and my children. In part of my study, I read a bunch of deliverance books from various religions. And the best story we have of deliverance is Moses delivering the children of Israel out of Egypt. So after studying deliverance for a year and continuing to pray. I decided to take a trip to Egypt. And Jerusalem with the specific intention of studying deliverance. In preparation for the trip. I wrote a bunch of prayers, and I put them on tiny pieces of paper. And while I was there, I prayed at the west wall in Jerusalem and stuck those prayers in the wall. And one of them was that I would be delivered, and then I could help deliver women all over the world. Within six months of returning home from Jerusalem, after implementing the strategies I had discovered. I was delivered and my children were delivered. Without going to court. Anne: I had a legal document written up, and I used strategy to send it to my ex, and he signed it, but there was no court involved. So now they do not have to go with him if they don’t want to. And the parent time schedule is only one weekend a month, from Friday at six to Sunday. THE ISRAELITES’ STORY AS A METAPHOR FOR HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH KIDS Anne: With no midweek and only two weeks in the summer. And only two holidays ever, period the whole year, only two holidays. So basically, we get to do whatever we want now. I no longer need to protect myself from from my husband’s emotional abuse. I’m free now. I have this map of the children of Israel delivered, so Janet, you can see this. All right, so when I went to Egypt, I’m going to make up numbers here. But let’s say 500 feet on either side of the Nile is the most luscious, beautiful farmland because the water’s right there. And you can see when it changes from farm land that’s easy to water, bordering the Nile river, to a crazy absolute scary desert. We were on the Nile, and I looked out and it was like green and then like sand. So, if you look at a map of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Israel at that time. Where the children of Israel were captive by Pharaoh. They were actually in the Nile delta, where there was a good farmland, lots of water. They weren’t living in a hole. And they’ve been there for hundreds of years. They were born there. So the Israelites at that time didn’t know anything else. They had never been to the promised land. They knew nothing about it. So even though they were enslaved and oppressed, it’s the only thing they’d ever known. So when Moses is commanded to deliver the Israelites. They ask Pharaoh to let them go. And he says, no. So then God sends frogs and fire from the sky and turns the Nile into blood. All of those plagues. STAGE 1: THINGS GET SO BAD THAT YOU WONDER IF THERE’S SOMETHING BETTER Anne: Now everyone sees this as God’s way of forcing Pharaoh to let them go. But I actually think. It was for the Israelites. Because when these things happened to Pharaoh, when the Nile turned to blood and all the frogs and the fire from the sky. It wasn’t just happening to Pharaoh. It was also happening to the Israelites. So even though it’s the only thing they’ve ever known. It got so bad. They started thinking. Maybe there’s something better. So for all abuse victims, this is stage one. When things get so bad, you start wondering. If there’s something better out there. STAGE 2:YOU START TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT The second stage, I’ll talk about in a story of Moses in just a minute, is you start to do something about it. Now many women are trying to figure out what’s going on. They start to try to find out how to leave a toxic relationship with kids. They’re resisting the abuse by getting help. So many women will try pornography addiction, recovery or couple therapy. Janet. What did you try during this stage? How To Leave A Toxic Relationship Janet: I tried anger management, sex addiction therapy, CSAT, couples therapy. All of the above. Anne: Yeah, because that’s what everyone tells us to do. We don’t understand it’s abuse, we try to get help for betrayal trauma in marriage. We go for help. In the case of the Israelites. Moses starts by trying to negotiate with Pharaoh. I wonder if some Israelites wondered if they could maybe strike a deal with Pharaoh, where they had to work a little bit less. Where they got a little more food. The land, there is goodness there. HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH KIDS: OVERCOMING FEAR J anet: This is the man that I built a family with, I love him. He isn’t horrible a hundred percent of the time, because I’m still in the fog of the abuse. So I haven’t even gotten the chance to feel relief enough to realize how much abuse is going on. Anne: Right, at this point, the Israelites like legit might think more about the frogs, the fire from the sky, and the blood of the Nile. Than they are about Pharaoh’s oppression. Thinking that some of it is good. Not realizing that the good was also bad. It was grooming to keep them stuck, to keep them oppressed. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop explains this really well. So finally, after all these plagues, Pharaoh was like, fine. I think we underestimate how difficult it was. For an entire group of people to pack up and leave. They’re going out into the desert, they’ve never left before. They don’t know anything else. So I imagine them getting out their carts. And putting everything they own in these carts. And I’m wondering if Pharaoh’s like, hold on no, no, no. You can’t take all those animals. You can’t take this cart. So there’s this period of time of figuring out who’s going to take what. And finally, they can actually move out. And they’re making their way out of Egypt. Now, if you look at a map, you’ll notice that the Jerusalem is up near where the delta is of the Nile,. And they could’ve just walked across the top of the Sinai peninsula instead of going south. NAVIGATING THE EXODUS: A JOURNEY OF SURVIVAL Anne: Assuming they’re led by God, he wants them to go this very hard way. That has a massive body of water in between Egypt and the Sinai peninsula. What are they going to do? Like build boats, you know? When I was there, I was like, what in the world? Why wouldn’t you just walk from point A to point B? That does not have a giant body of water. In between. But instead, they go south to the Red Sea. And they get stuck. By this time, Pharaoh has changed his mind. He sent his armies after them. They can’t go forward. Or they’ll drown. And maybe some of them wanted to go back, but chances are, if they did go back, Pharaoh would take it up a notch and oppress them so that they could not escape again. And a miracle occurs. Moses parts, the red sea. Aside from the absolute awe of being completely blown away by this incredible miracle. Let’s think about the practicalities of this situation. The Red Sea was not parted until this point. Water had covered the bottom of the red sea for thousands of years. There’s no well-worn path at the bottom of the red sea. So, if you start down this path, you’re going to be up to your waist in mud, tripping over rocks. And if it were me, I would think the entire time, is this water going to fall down on us and kill us? They didn’t know if they would even survive crossing the Red Sea. I’m guessing that, due to the practicalities of the situation, some people were like, uh, I’ll take my chances with Pharaoh. Because, the way forward seems too dangerous. HOW TO LEAVE A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS: THE RED SEA CROSSING Anne: We don’t know how long it took the Israelites to cross the Red Sea in the mud, and the rocks. But it could have taken days. Luckily, the Lord held the Egyptians back with that pillar of fire. So they couldn’t come destroy them during the process of crossing. But again, the entire time they’re crossing, they don’t even know if they’re going to survive. Janet: And they didn’t know what was on the other side. They’ve never tasted that freedom. They don’t know what that land will look like. So they could see the Red Sea parted freeze and not take those steps through the mud. Anne: I remember praying. Save me, God save me. And God is like, yes, I’m here. I will save you. Start walking across the mud. And I’m thinking. But I don’t want to get my feet dirty. As I learned these strategies, I remember telling God, like, what, you want me to step in that mud? Janet: This analogy of the Israelites approaching the Red Sea and not knowing what’s going to happen. Their life had to get so bad that it pushes them to conquer the fear of watching those waters part. Looking at that ground and actually doing the hard steps of sludging through with all their items. With the fear that the water might come down on them. They don’t know what’s on the other side. They don’t know if their enemies will get through. It’s almost that gift of the emotional abuse from my husband got so bad that there’s no other choice. I don’t know what this will look like to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids. I don’t know how hard it will be to pass through those waters. STAGE 3: COMMIT TO PROTECT YOURSELF (NO MATTER WHAT) Anne: When I look at this map, I think the reason they went down south is instead of just going up and going east over the top part of the Sinai peninsula. Is that once they got to the other side and the water fell down, they couldn’t go back. And that’s the third stage of how to leave a toxic relationship when you have kids, protection. It’s protecting yourself through the strategies I teach in The Betrayal Trauma Workshop , and committing to those strategies no matter what. No matter how much he tries to manipulate you or whatever grooming tactics he uses. That you maintain those safety strategies, not just with him, but with people around you. https://youtube.com/shorts/J4S2vwdknzc Because I think the reason God had them go south and cross the Red Sea was because he did not want them to go back. It was also a protection. There would be no other way to stop Pharaoh’s army, had they gone across the north of the Sinai peninsula. God wants us to use safety strategies to protect ourselves. And to use them, no matter how hard it gets. The Betrayal Trauma Workshop gives women strategies to protect themselves. And these strategies work, but the key is commitment. If your husband is abusive. He’s going to try to exploit you in all kinds of ways. He may groom you. You don’t know what’s going to happen when you start actually protecting yourself. The Betrayal Trauma Workshop lays out exactly what to do to protect yourself. In a way that he can’t get around it, it’s not up to him anymore. It has nothing to do with him. You can protect yourself no matter what he does. THE EMOTIONAL JOURNEY OF POST-ABUSE RECOVER

Have you ever felt like, “my husband hates me” and you had no idea why? Maybe nothing obvious is happening that you can point to and say, “This proves it.” The truth is: emotionally abusive men don’t have to yell or call you names for you to feel unloved, emotionally unsafe, and completely confused about why your marriage feels so painful. Take this free emotional abuse test to find out if your husband is emotionally abusive. Key takeaways from this article: How “small” patterns over time erode feeling safe and loved. Doubting your own needs often signals deeper issues. How covert abuse makes it hard to spot the overall dynamic. How setting boundaries may highlight a troubling power imbalance. The right support can help you see the pattern and plan for safety. 5 SIGNS IT’S EMOTIONAL ABUSE AND NOT YOUR FAULT 1. EVERY CONCERN I HAD, MEANT I WAS “TOO MUCH” Every time I ask for help, express emotion, or bring up a concern, he flips it back on me. He said I was, “too much, unable to let anything go, making mountains out of molehills, or just wanting to fight.” He had no empathy for me. The repeated message was: any natural reactions, needs, or concerns I had, were character flaws. My husband purposefully kept me in a place of doubting my relationship skills, and his manipulation worked. It kept me spinning my wheels always trying to prove to him that I am lovable. 2. MY HUSBAND HATES ME: WHILE I TRIED HARDER, HE SEEMED ANNOYED Have you ever done something nice for him, and he seems super annoyed? Let’s say you’re like, “Hey, I picked up your dry cleaning on the way home.” And he’s like, “Do you want a parade?” You know, he’s got this like sulky teenager sort of reaction instead of saying, “Oh, thank you so much.” If he’s doing that, you would definitely get the sense that he hated you. 3. HE WAS NOT KIND, BUT I DIDN’T NOTICE UNTIL SOMEONE ELSE POINTED IT OUT TO ME My husband wasn’t overtly unkind, but I didn’t notice until somebody else pointed it out. I didn’t think my husband hates me. It was when he ignored me at a party. Instead of being like, “Hey, this is my wife,” he just stood in front of me and didn’t introduce me. I had never thought about how rude that was. I just thought, “Oh, maybe he didn’t think about me.” But not thinking about someone is actually unkind. 4. WHEN I SET A BOUNDARY, HE FELT ATTACKED When I quietly stopped doing something I didn’t want to do, he reacted like I had attacked him. And that confused me for years, because I wasn’t yelling. I wasn’t insulting him. I was simply saying no without always saying the word. And I wasn’t doing anything, besides not doing something I didn’t want to do. He did that all the time. But if he’s only in the relationship to have control over you, “no” feels like rebellion. Because he does not see your boundary as an autonomous person. He sees it as you failing to serve him. So when he says he loves you but acts like he hates you, sometimes what he hates is not you. He hates that you have your own needs. Your own limits. Your own body. It’s shocking to realize the level of abuse symptoms experienced . To learn more about this type of abuse, listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. TRANSCRIPT: I FEEL LIKE MY HUSBAND HATES ME Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll be talking about feeling like my husband hates me. We’re gonna call her Allison. Welcome, Allison. Allison: Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here. I’m totally fangirling right now, ’cause I have listened to you for so many years. I still can’t believe this is happening. So I did not miss a podcast. I go way, way, way, way, way back. This is so cool for me. Anne: Oh wow. Well, you’ve been on this journey with me then. Allison: I know at one time you said you could tell the change in your voice. And I totally could. I found you and it was amazing. Lemme just say it that way. It was the validation. It’s funny when I try to tell my story now, it’s hard because I am so clearheaded now. And I think it’s so hard to tell how you were then. Because, if I knew now what I knew then. It would be a completely different story. So when I tell people about you, I tell them to go back to the beginning, Because then you can go along with her. I was married 20 years, I was the textbook, didn’t know anything was really wrong. And I say that now and I think I know a lot of stuff that was wrong. Anne: Let’s start back at that beginning when you were in the dark, so to speak. Talk about how you felt when you first met him. Did you suspect something was wrong? And then what did you think it was? I NEVER FELT SAFE OR LOVED Allison: All this tangible stuff that you can point to, if it was happening. I didn’t know about it. As far as I know, he never cheated on me. I don’t know if he ever used pornography. Didn’t call me names, didn’t yell at me. When we first met, we were in college, we were in our twenties. We were friends, we dated, got engaged and married. Now, I can tell you inside my inner gut, I never really felt safe or loved or anything by him. But I didn’t know that that was wrong. I’m the kind of person who is optimistic. I’m very hopeful. I can do a lot of things at once. I can solve a lot of problems. Now, it would be totally different, but I didn’t think anything was wrong. I thought I was super happy, comfortable, and safe in that relationship. In hindsight, I felt like I was always the nag, I was, OCD, I was over the top, I was a pain. I had these extremely high, crazy expectations that nobody could meet. That was just our life, and we had my first son after we’d been married about seven years, and everything just got bad. It was then that I started to think my husband hates me. And then three years later, we had our daughter, and things got worse. And I thought it was me. I thought I’m just a hard person to be around. Anne: I don’t know if I’ve said this on the podcast, but of a time we were at a park and he was just being mean to me and I was like, I’m really great. I’m really cool. So it’s the opposite of what you were thinking, it’s me. But maybe sometimes you did think I’m great, why doesn’t he like me? I TURNED TO MY CHURCH AND THERAPY FOR HELP Allison: Little voices in my head would be like, why don’t I have these problems with anybody else? Why does nobody else in my life tell me I am difficult to communicate with? I get paid to communicate with people. And I feel like I’m really good at it. But I thought it was me. I was not super religious, grew up Christian, but not overly so. When I was having a hard time being a mom and didn’t feel like I had any support, I went to church and I just threw myself into the Methodist church, and I would tell you now, I love the Methodist Church dearly in my heart. They helped me find Jesus, and I love all that. But it made all this so much worse. I needed help because I feel like my husband hates me. I just threw into the submission and be a better Biblical wife, and it took everything already happening and exponentially made it worse. Anne: Back then when you thought it was you, did you go to therapy? Did you try to go to a couple therapy with him? Can you talk about the therapeutic experience? Allison: Yes, so the first time we went to therapy, we’d probably been married six years. It was very much, something is wrong, and I don’t know what kind of thing. I found myself more attracted to other people. I was like, why do I like these other men? Or I’d rather be with friends more than him. Again, I just thought, what’s wrong with me? He’s funny, he is nice, he has a good job, and he treats me well. I TRIED EVERYTHING AND STILL, MY HUSBAND HATES ME Allison: So the first time we went to therapy, that was the premise and the therapist, it was the date night, go on more date nights, all this typical stuff. I just tried harder. Thought maybe we should have a baby. Maybe that’ll help. Maybe I should quit work, maybe that’ll help. I tried to be a better wife. And I threw myself into all The Power of a Praying Wife books. And how can I be a better wife? ‘Cause if I am better. Then he will give me some sort of safety or love that I’m craving. Anne: You mentioned he was nice to you. He is a good guy. Why don’t I wanna spend time with him? Was he actually nice to you? Allison: Actually not nice, not nice or kind. He was none of that, but I couldn’t see it. I didn’t think my husband hates me. So again, in hindsight now, he was always very grumpy. He was mean to my friends. Definitely mean to my family. Of course, none of them said anything either. 20 years later, I was like, why didn’t you say anything to me? And they said, “You seemed okay, so we didn’t feel like it was our place.” Anne: What did they think of him from their point of view? Allison: Close friends and family, people who really knew me, thought he was a jerk. Why does she like this person? But they just trusted me. They said, “Well, she’s a smart person, he must treat her great at home.” He was mean to waiters, had road rage. He was that kind of person, who was angry all the time. WORKING FULL TIME AND CARRYING EVERYTHING AT HOME Allison: That all elevated when we had kids. I think most people questioned me. What is she seeing in him? That made me question myself even more. Everything I tried to do, therapy, church, and advice from people who loved me, put it more onto me. So the first time I went to therapy, just nothing. I felt this heavy weight. Now I have to work full-time and take care of everything in the house, take care of the yard and the cars, and plan all our date nights and stuff so that he will be nice to me. It just put even more onto me. Our pattern was complaining or criticizing, or asking for help, or having any emotion. And then him saying, “Well that’s you. You’re too much, you’re overboard. You can never let anything go. You just wanna fight.” It was, gaslighting at its extreme. And I took it, I don’t think it’s ’cause I’m stupid or a doormat. I think I took it cause I just thought I could fix it. Anne: Also, strangely, it shows what a good person you are. You weren’t super offended. You were like, “Oh, maybe that is true. Maybe I can improve.” You didn’t feel like my husband hates me. Allison: I’ve always liked self-improvement. I think my dad gave me The Seven Habits when I was in high school school. I’ve always been the kind of person who thrives on how I can become a better person. That’s always been me. And so, I just fit the mold. I always say now, “What a great person to be married to.” He was married to somebody who was going to keep trying. ABUSERS SEEM TO FIT THE SAME MOLD Anne: I wouldn’t say you fit the mold. And this is why, it’s really weird. The abusers seem to fit the mold. ‘Cause they all tend to have the same patterns, even if they look a little bit different. But victims act totally different. Some of them, I didn’t do this, but some shut down and become more quiet. Some become louder. And some try self-improvement, some don’t. It’s really interesting that we react in all different kinds of ways, but the fact that they lie, and then they keep lying, and they don’t stop lying, is what makes them pretty much all similar. It depends on how they lie. Allison: Fast forward 20 years later. ‘Cause it was really just 20 years of the same. We found ourselves in therapy a couple more times between this and that point. At first, I thought something was maybe wrong with my son. He needs to go to therapy. Is he on the spectrum? What is wrong? Why is family fighting all the time? Why can’t we sit down to a meal without fighting? And why are we always fighting in the car? Why do we not fight when I go out with my friends and their kids? And it was just, what is wrong here? And the therapist that time. I think he saw it. I really do, this person saw it. He told my ex, if you wanna see changes in the behavior of your son, you’ll need to treat your wife the way you want your son to treat her. You can’t yell at your son for leaving stuff around the house, and not help out at home. If you are not doing those things. MY HUSBAND HATES ME: HE WAS LAZY TO AN EXTREME Allison: It was very elementary, and very gentle. And my ex is like, we’re never gonna see him again. That therapist is terrible. He’s trying to blame it all on me. It just wasn’t worth the fight, that was time number two. Anne: During this time, did you ever find pornography or affairs or sexting or anything like that? Allison: I didn’t, to this day, I still don’t know. They’re all the same, it would not surprise me. Anne: Yeah, there are so many women who are like, I don’t know. And then later they find out or never find out. Even though they feel like my husband hates me. But it wouldn’t surprise me either, with what you’re saying. Allison: And honestly, I’m at the point where it doesn’t matter either way. I think I lived a very long time in the, I need something to prove that he’s a bad person for me to justify how I feel. All I could say tangibly is that he was lazy to an extreme. He would never help with anything. He’s set his alarm to go off at four o’clock in the morning, and it would go off and wake everybody up. But then wouldn’t get outta bed till eight o’clock in the morning, constantly for years. We had two kids, and I’m putting ’em to bed at night. I’d say, can you do the dishes so that I can just come downstairs and watch TV after I put the kids to bed? I come downstairs, he’s asleep. The dishes aren’t done. And next morning, I would say, “I thought you were gonna do the dishes, that upset me.” IT WAS EASIER TO DISASSOCIATE FROM THE PATTERNS Allison: It was just, “Why can you not let anything go? You make a mountain out of a mole hill. You just wanna fight all the time.” I didn’t see those as patterns. It was so covert. Everything turned back onto me and I just accepted it. ‘Cause I think it felt like I had a little bit of control. If I could accept that it was me, maybe I could fix it. Anne: Yeah, I mean that’s the hope, we want to fix it. Allison: We want to fix it. Anne: Yeah. Allison: When he would say things like, “You just wanna fight. You want to blow this up?” Now I look back at those conversations, and I wish I could go back in time, because it’s the last thing I wanted. But instead of me being that clear and saying, “No, I don’t wanna fight.” I would say, “I’m so sorry I did this. I’m so sorry I brought this up.” Anne: Mm. Mm-hmm. Allison: It just got easier to disassociate from it and try to do my own thing, than to try to fix it, because every fight ended with me. Not just fight, every conversation ended with it was my fault. And so it just got easier to never have a conversation or never bring up a concern, ’cause it was just gonna be my fault anyway. I LOST MYSELF COMPLETELY Allison: Then I lived for several years like that, and that’s where I just lost myself completely. One day my sister said, “Something’s not right”. Again, it was all very gentle, nothing blew up. Something just doesn’t seem right. You’ve been married for 20 years, having the same fight for 20 years.” She had been married a little over 10. And she’s like, “We resolve problems. You’ve never resolved a problem, and that’s not normal.” I let this little pin prick into my head that maybe this isn’t normal and maybe it’s not me. That was it. It was very gentle. That’s when I went back to that same therapist for about eight years before and sat on his couch, and I was like, “Something’s not right. I don’t know what’s wrong, but I just don’t wanna do anything.” And I’m a happy person. I’m an extrovert. I just wasn’t myself. He had already seen it eight years before. Very gently he said, “Here’s a book called Boundaries using them in marriage. Maybe you should read this.” And so I read it and I was like, oh, yay, this is what’s wrong. We’re gonna fix it. He’s gonna read the book and realize that, oh, and we’re gonna fix it. And then that’s when the bottom dropped out. Because when I switched my tactic to, maybe it’s not all me, maybe it’s only 99% me, but 1% you, he lost it. And that’s when things escalated and it started becoming a little bit more overt. MY HUSBAND HATES ME: I FOUND BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY Allison: That’s right about when I Googled, “Why am I so unhappy in my marriage if nothing is wrong?” Something like that. I think covert abuse popped up and I was like, I wonder what that means. Gaslighting popped up. That’s when I found BTR, I started listening to your podcast. This is what’s happening. Oh my gosh. I was still hopeful it could fix it, because now I knew what it was. I lived like that for about nine months. And then one day it was like, no, I still very gently went to him and said, “You need to get outta the house. And if you ever decide to admit that maybe some of this could be you and you wanna talk, then come back and talk to me. But in the meantime, I’m done.” We had a big blow up. Then family court drama and the kids and all that. I saw who he really was, ’cause then it all came out. He went from literally one week of, “You’re the love of my life. Please don’t leave. We can work this out. I’ll do anything. I will do anything to save this.” It went from that to, “I want to destroy you. I will do anything to destroy you, destroy your family, destroy your business and take your children.” And it was that fast. Then I spent a few years trying to figure all that out. I faced the painful truth, my husband hates me. Anne: That’s what frustrates me about the domestic abuse services. I didn’t need the domestic violence shelter. But help with navigating the emotional abuse in marriagel , psychological, and spiritual abuse . They’re all about divorce, and if you don’t get divorced, something’s wrong with you. THEY WANT TO SCARE YOU, SO THEY CAN CONTROL YOU Anne: They look at you like you’re crazy if you don’t wanna get divorced. And then the second problem is they think divorce is the solution. Allison: Yes, it’s the start of the journey. Anne: Not the solution. Allison: No, that’s where you were invaluable. I’m telling you. So at this point, we had Our Family Wizard, and my sister had the password, and she would scrub through them. She’d say, this is the only thing you need to answer. I was terrified to block his number. I was terrified to not answer the phone if he called. Because I just thought, I have to answer the phone because if I don’t, he’s gonna say I’m not answering the phone, and then I’m not being collaborative, and then he’s gonna use that with the lawyer. That was the scariest part, that time right then. Anne: The thing I wanna tell women listening is, yeah, you’re scared and you’re scared for good reason because they’re scary, but they want to scare you. They’re scaring you on purpose, so that you’ll do what they want. It’s a form of coercive control. Allison: He was always able to gaslight me some way, so the pattern’s the same, it’s just that whatever they’re doing to scare you. Anne: When the gaslighting stopped working, that’s when he started using the other thing. And then when the court’s involved, the court becomes like an extension of his. A THREE YEAR COURT BATTLE Allison: Yeah, and my kids by then were older, I do thank God every day they weren’t younger. My heart breaks for women with young kids in this system because, this was really hard on my kids and sometimes I feel like we barely got out alive. I feel like we were bloody and bruised, it was so hard on all of us. But they were older, I was always honest with them. You’re given all kinds of weird advice, don’t ever disparage him. I was always very gentle about it. Your dad thinks differently than I think, but you can have your own relationship with him. He accused me of alienation, and we had the whole thing and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and whatever. But they were older. And that three year court battle ended with them talking to the judge alone. And she set us free. She said, “The final ruling tha

If your husband never apologizes, that’s a problem. But there’s an even bigger problem many people don’t talk about: if your husband apologizes, how do you know if it’s genuine? Especially if he has a history of lying. If it’s hard to tell whether his apology is truly genuine, look for these 5 things. And keep reading as I’ll share a personal example from after my divorce. 1. DOES HIS APOLOGY FOCUS ON ONE SMALL MOMENT , WHILE IGNORING THE BIG PICTURE? My husband would get mad at me almost every single night over the smallest things. And then one morning he said, “I’m so sorry about last night.” But what about the 52 nights that came before that or the credit card I still didn’t know he had? He was apologizing for one leaf and I was living in a whole forest of issues. If your husband thinks an apology for one incident is sufficient to repair the damage done by his pattern of lying, manipulation, or harm…he’s not taking ownership of his problem. He’s putting a bandaid on one of a thousand cuts and expecting that to heal all of the other wounds. 2. IF YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, DO YOU STILL FEEL UNEASY ? I felt relief in the moment when he apologized, but worse later. In the moment I thought it was a breakthrough, like maybe I wasn’t gonna have to drag this marriage up a hill by myself anymore. But then later I’d be brushing my teeth thinking, Why did I have to beg him to apologize? Many women expect to feel relief after an apology, but if your husband has had a history of being dishonest and diminishing the impact of his behavior, that feeling of uneasiness is often a signal, not a personal flaw. Give yourself space to observe instead of deciding what it “means” right away. 3. IS HIS APOLOGY BACKED BY CONSISTENT BEHAVIOR ? My husband sometimes cried when he apologized, but he would never cry in the moment when I was really hurting. This one really got me because I realized that when I was trying to share my concerns with him he didn’t really care. He just wanted the conversation to end. So why is he empathetic now that he is apologizing? Sometimes it’s hard to tell if he’s truly sorry for what he did, or sorry he’s facing consequences. And improving communication can’t fix the impact of emotional abuse and infidelity , no matter how often you’re told it will. Watch his behavior, not his explanations. His actions will tell you the truth. 4. DOES HIS APOLOGY COME WITH PRESSURE TO RECONCILE? This sounded like, “I’m so sorry. Can I move back in now?” Or “I’m sorry. Are we done talking about this now?” That pressure was the tell that my husband’s apology wasn’t genuine. Many women are told: “If your husband apologizes, you should forgive him and move forward together.” But those are two different things. Forgiveness is something you can do for yourself. Reconciliation requires evidence of change. You can forgive and maintain distance. 5. DOES HIS APOLOGY RESPECT YOUR NEED FOR EMOTIONAL SAFETY ? My husband’s apologies gave me hope, but I didn’t realize hope was a manipulation tactic. True emotional safety and manufactured hope are not the same thing. If he’s finally telling you what you’ve always wanted to hear, it doesn’t mean you owe him anything and you don’t have to decide anything today. If you’re trying to make sense of his behavior—not just his words—take our free emotional abuse quiz for more clarity. TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, HOW DO YOU KNOW IF IT’S GENUINE? Anne: So years ago, I recorded a podcast episode about how I receive a restitution letter in the mail, and my husband apologized. In the mail from my then ex husband after we were divorced. If you’ve ever received an apology from your husband or ex husband, it seems like he’s showing remorse. And you’re wondering, can my husband change , what does this mean? Is this genuine? This is the episode for you. If you need support in understanding if your husband is really changing, check out our Group Session Schedule . It’ll also give you a snapshot of how I felt years ago. I was still hurting and confused. Just a quick recap. Before we married, he lied to me and was abusive, but I wasn’t aware of it. Because he manipulated me and presented himself as somebody he wasn’t. Instead, I just thought he had an anger problem and needed to go to therapy. ESCALATING ABUSE WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES AND TRIES TO MAKE RESTITUTION Anne: He said he would go to therapy. But continues to lie to me and yell in my face, two inches from my face. He continued to lie about his explicit material use. I believe now, he manipulated me and lied to me about his use our whole marriage. Still lying about it, not only to me, but also to large groups of people as he’s doing public speaking. Then, came his arrest for domestic violence. Then doing nothing to acknowledge what has happened at all. And, not trying to get back in the home, not trying to repent, not trying to take accountability, not being honest, and not being humble in any way. Then he files for divorce, claiming it’s because I’m not forgiving him or something like that. Now I want to tell you a little bit about what happens on the day my husband apologized for. In 2015, we spoke at UCAP. He and I were going to speak together about how he recovered from his addiction and how to do it successfully. However, both before and after the speech, his abusive behaviors were escalating. He put holes in a bunch of our walls. He broke his door. At that time, I thought, well, this is part of the recovery process. So we spoke at UCAP. Right after I said, “You’ve got to shut down your website”. I can’t do this with you anymore. This is a sham, and he got more and more angry. THE TURNING POINT: LEGOLAND INCIDENT Anne: That summer we go to Legoland, and on the way there I am driving, he grabs my head in the car violently and screams at me to shut up in front of my children. I was so terrified that once we parked, I jumped out of the car with my kids and ran into the Legoland hotel. And I just sat there and cried for a while, and then handed my kids to my parents. I thought, well, I guess I can’t leave him in the car. So as I was walking back to the car to get him, I was praying out loud, like, please, I need a miracle. I need a miracle. I cannot do this anymore. The rest of the day at Legoland, he screamed at me in public, in front of my parents and a bunch of other people. It was awful. And on the way home, I was sobbing uncontrollably, still driving, just to try and get him to calm down and stop. I said, I want you to know that no matter how abusive and terrible you are to me, I will always be respectful to you. I’m sorry if I was not respectful today in confronting you about your abuse, more or less. I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something like that. And he looked at me with the most evil, look in his eyes and said good. How do I know you’ll never act like that again? He blamed me for HIS emotional abuse. There was no remorse, there was no anything. There’s no acknowledgement of me crying, I was taken aback by his response. I was horrified. So the rest of the trip, I tried to avoid him as much as possible. RESTITUTION VS. FORGIVENESS WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES Anne: I slept in a separate bed. He wondered why he couldn’t be close to me, and why I didn’t want to kiss him. So before I read the so-called restitution letter he sent, where my husband apologized. I want to talk about the difference between what modern clergy and maybe therapists say about restitution. Which they frequently confuse with forgiveness. My church had their semi-annual conference. In conference to illustrate the “power of forgiveness,” one of the speakers shared a story. About a drunk driver who had killed a couple, a husband and wife. He shares this touching part of the story, where after the drunk driver is sentenced for manslaughter. The parents of the couple killed, and the parents of the drunk driver, broke down in tears and gave each other hugs in the hall of the courthouse. He wanted to show this as a beautiful moment of forgiveness. And as I listened to the story, I was like, this story of forgiveness has all the right elements. It has the element of justice, the element of truth, which is what makes forgiveness possible. Reconciliation wasn’t even on the table, because the drunk driver went to jail and the couple was dead. Even if the couple wasn’t dead, they didn’t need to reconcile because they didn’t live in the same house. There is no way that he would have a touching story of the “power of forgiveness.” If the parents of the drunk driver claimed, your son and your daughter, the ones killed, it’s their fault that our son was drinking. It’s their fault that this accident happened, and it’s their fault that now our son is in jail. Even though the story of forgiveness in the conference I heard is intended to motivate people to forgive. THE REALITY OF SEPARATION FROM EVIL Anne: There are countless stories in the scriptures where God commands the righteous to separate from the wicked. And for some reason, clergy often doesn’t suggest the most likely place to separate yourself from someone who is wicked or abusive is in your own home. One woman who works in the anti-abuse sphere said, “I don’t believe in evil,” on her Instagram. And I could not disagree more. I believe in evil. I’ve seen it in my ex-husband’s eyes and in his face. He really genuinely looked possessed. His eyes were kind of glazed over. It was like he wasn’t even there. Or when he would verbally assault me, or when he would punch walls or yell. It was so scary. It was like those films where the victims know they’re not safe, screaming and yelling. Please stop, but no matter how much they plead for mercy or kindness, the bad guys refused. I want to give two analogies before I read this apology letter from my husband. ANALOGIES TO UNDERSTAND ABUSE Anne: The first is the analogy of a tree. Imagine your marriage and family is a beautiful oak tree, and you have spent years, years, and years planting it, digging around it and nourishing it. And then your husband starts hacking off random branches all the time, and you’re asking him to stop. You’re saying please, please don’t do that. I love this tree. It means a lot to me. Please don’t do that. And he just keeps doing it, and he’ll hack off a branch, and then he’ll say I’m so sorry I did that. I love you. I care about you. And the next thing, you know, there’s another branch on the driveway sitting there, and you’re like, what is going on? I thought we already talked about this. And then one day, in my case, he came and ripped the entire tree out. All that is left is a gaping hole. So that’s the first analogy I want to use. The second one is as if a murderer broke into my home at night, killed my family with a machine gun, and left my house in complete disarray. The walls have bullet holes all over, there’s blood all over the place, and walked out and did not acknowledge what happened, was not arrested, was not held accountable in any way. And then told people. Yeah, I just went to this home and then got attacked, and I am the victim in this situation. Okay, so those are the two analogies. WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZED: ANALYZING IT’S MEANING Anne: So the restitution letter I received validates he’s abusive. I can clearly see absolutely no change. I am not sure why he sent this. Either number one, someone broke up with him or he’d had a bad day, or he felt super bad that we were going on a trip and he couldn’t come with us. There’s that. If he wrote it of his own volition and didn’t tell anyone about it and is not using it as a, look, I wrote this restitution letter and she still won’t talk to me. And If he really genuinely wrote it and hasn’t used it to brag to other people as part of his story of being a “victim,” Then I can see that perhaps there’s some part of him that understands or can see the harm he’s caused, just a tiny, tiny part. If, on the other hand, clergy instigated this or a therapist or someone who said, well, she doesn’t talk to you. Maybe you need to write a restitution letter. So someone instigated it. So now he can say, well, I’ve written a restitution letter, and she still won’t talk to me. Then I don’t feel like this is any sign of him recognizing what he’s done wrong. So this is the letter I receive, in it my husband apologizes. Anne, our son informed me that you may be going to Legoland during your trip to California over spring break. I’m glad to hear that you are taking the children to California and possibly Legoland. I hope it is a safe and enjoyable vacation for all. I am writing to apologize for my negative and hurtful behavior. During that trip to California and Legoland in 2015. YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES WITH A TOKEN GESTURE Anne: I acted in an irritable manner and said and did hurtful things during that vacation, which made it difficult for you and the rest of the family to enjoy that vacation. I am sorry. It’s hard to have the memories of that vacation overshadowed by the difficulties I caused. I hope you can forgive me and enjoy the upcoming trip. I have enclosed a $300 check as a token of my apology, in an effort to make some restitution for the difficulties I caused during that trip to California. Most sincerely, Chuck. His name is not Chuck, I am changing it to protect his anonymity. So let me talk about the $300 check first, even though he’s apologizing. He refused to give me $100,000 back in pre-marital assets. I used money from before our marriage. Money that my parents gave me, that my grandma gave me, and money that I had from a condo I owned to pay off his law school loans. That money I earned before we married. And he refused to give it back, which confused me so much because our whole marriage was a lie. So I expected him to at least be accountable for that and say, yeah, I will give you back the $100, 000 you had before we married, but he refused. So, I cashed the $300 check, but it means nothing to me without the full restitution for that $100, 000 in premarital assets. Including all the financial difficulties I have had due to his choices. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery we understand that abuse includes lying, manipulating, explicit material use, and infidelity of any kind. We’re throwing all these serious behaviors into the category of abuse, which is the only way we can look at it. WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, OBSERVE HIS CHARACTER Anne: At the time I got this restitution letter, I was observing from a safe distance to see if he would choose to change his character. If your wondering can my husband change, I’ve observed that it’s impossible to externally motivate an abusive man to change, especially because his exploitative privilege comes with so many rewards. What we see in our communities is that emotionally and psychologically abusive men will be reluctant to make significant changes, but they’re not reluctant to apologize or tell people that they’re going to make changes. They’re just reluctant to actually make the changes and how they relate to you. Because for him, it’s a transactional situation. And because it’s transactional for him. Persuasion, logic, pleading, begging, getting him in some men’s program. Even when he’s in the men’s program, he’s going to convince the therapist that he’s incredible and amazing. He won’t actually change his behavior, because then he’d lose his ability to exploit you. And that’s what a “relationship” is to him, it’s a transactionship. And so he’s like, what’s the point of being in a relationship with this person if I can’t exploit her? What would I get out of it? WHAT ARE PERFORMATIVE APOLOGIES Anne: Because of that, most emotionally and psychologically abusive men, addicts as some people call them, don’t choose to rid themselves of all the privileges the abuse gives them. So, at the time, I’m looking at this letter and analyzing it to see if there’s any evidence that his character has changed since I talked to him last. This letter doesn’t even make restitution for anything. Even though my ex husband apologized, it doesn’t talk about him grabbing my head. I’m pretty sure he was using explicit material during that time, and doesn’t say anything about the lies or manipulation. It doesn’t even make restitution just for that one moment, let alone the whole tree, right? It doesn’t even make restitution for the one branch. He doesn’t admit fully his history of psychological, and physical abusiveness. For example, he was online dating and going to a singles congregation long before our divorce was final. Whereas I stayed true to my marriage vows the entire time until the divorce was final. He didn’t acknowledge that the abuse was wrong unconditionally. And he didn’t identify the justifications he used, including the various ways he blamed me. He didn’t admit he’d been counter parenting or talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable, without slipping back into defending them. He didn’t acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control. So an abuser, they think, man, if she found out the truth, I would be toast. So to control the situation, I’m going to lie. That is abuse, right there. He didn’t talk in detail about the short and long-term impact his abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, without reverting to feeling sorry for himself, or talking about how hard the experience has been for him. WHEN YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES AS A WEAPON Anne: Again, he is not the victim here. The tree did not just randomly fall on him, as he would like others to believe. He ripped it out on purpose. This acting like the victim goes far with people who don’t know the truth, and that’s why they do it. One reason I know this restitution letter is not a sign of true repentance, or that my husband apologized in earnest. Is that I sent information about how we could make the children’s schedule more consistent to help them and their emotional stability. And Chuck wrote back and said, “My personal and professional life is more important, so no.” So he’s absolutely not willing to put the needs of his children ahead of his own needs. That’s another sign to me that he is absolutely not repentant. He is not changing. Most Betrayal Trauma Recovery clients say they often hear the abuser apologize. And we see patterns that apologies are part of psychological abuse. Abusers use apologies as a weapon. Because they’re transactional and think it’s an equation. They think, I say, I’m sorry. And that’s payment. Then what I get back is that she can’t say anything else about it. And she can’t expect anything of me after that. Like they think of it as some sort of transaction. Because the abuser’s exploitative privilege is the heart of his character. He’s going to think I’m such a great guy, because I said those words, most men would never even apologize. So she owes me because I’ve stooped so low as to say the words, I’m sorry. THE TRUE NATURE OF AN ABUSIVE CHARACTER Anne: Abusers also think. I can act like I’m changing. So that equation I was talking about or making a show of doing this differently a few times. And then that will earn me the ability to just keep doing it. Like they think they need to perform, rather than realize they need to change their character. We have to realize that if they actually wanted to change, they wouldn’t be that way in the first place. The character they have now is what they chose through every little choice they make up until this point. And so they actually became who they want to be. This is the most overlooked point about abusers, that an abuser has an abusive character, because he developed it through choice after choice. If he’s not internally motivated to change, because he hasn’t been in the past. I mean, this is who he has become. Then he criticizes you for not realizing how he’s changed. Even though he hasn’t changed at all. My husband performs a performance of an apology. For a few weeks or mont

When counseling for cheating treats a husband’s betrayal as a marriage issue instead of focusing on his pattern of lying, it can be a soul crushing realization for his wife. Women who’ve been betrayed by their husbands need support that personally understands this truth, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery groups . Here are five things a therapist or counselor may ask you to do, that you’re probably already doing. 5 THINGS A THERAPIST MIGHT SUGGEST IN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING, THAT YOU’RE PROBABLY ALREADY DOING 1. YOU SHOULD BE MORE SELF-REFLECTIVE Women who enter into counseling for cheating after discovery of their husband’s betrayal, often say that they’ve spent years wrestling with questions about their own expectations or behaviors in the marriage. Many of them have already been asking if they were “too critical or sensitive,” or how they could have “communicated better.” Husbands who have a pattern of manipulation and lying often use their wife’s willingness to look at her own “faults” as a way to distract her and the therapist from seeing the truth. 2. YOUR MARRIAGE CAN’T HEAL IF YOU KEEP BRINGING UP THE PAST Betrayed wives often want to know more details about their husband’s betrayal or his patterns of behavior after they’ve discovered he has been lying to them and living a double life. It’s a natural part of the healing process. What’s not natural or healthy is for a counselor or a husband to tell a betrayed partner that she needs to “put it in the past” in order for the relationship to move forward. Men who have lived double lives have already benefitted from their wife’s integrity and her decision to give him the benefit of the doubt over and over again. If he wants to move forward in a healed relationship, he should take responsibility for his deception and be willing to answer questions. 3. IF THE THERAPIST SUGGESTS YOU LOOK FOR SOLUTIONS “TOGETHER” Many wives are already the solution-focused, repair department of the family. When there is confusion, they look for a book, a podcast, or a therapist that might help them understand what’s really happening and how to fix it. They’ll schedule the date nights, pray the prayers, make the apologies, and have the conversations with a softer approach. They’ll try to make their home peaceful and emotionally safe for everyone. But, if their husband is lying about cheating, using inappropriate media, emotional affairs, or financial betrayal, even in therapy, then none of the above solutions is going to solve the real problem. His lying. 4. COUNSELING FOR CHEATING SUGGESTS YOU RE-COMMIT TO THE MARRIAGE Most wives lean in and work hard to keep their families together after discovering their husband’s betrayal. But trying harder won’t cure his entitlement. Being more available and more patient won’t cure his dishonesty. Offering more love does not cure his emotional or spiritual abuse . A wife can pour herself into the marriage until there is almost nothing left of her, and still not fix his motivations for hiding the truth. 5. IF THE THERAPIST SUGGESTS THAT YOU SHOULD ASK IMPORTANT QUESTIONS When things feel off in their marriage most women will ask questions or speak up about odd late nights, mood shifts, secrecy, intimacy problems, and the strange feeling in their gut. But their husbands have used these concerns as another opportunity to gaslight, blame-shift, and undermine her instincts and reality. When a counselor suggests that the betrayed partner should ask more direct questions they’re just adding more pressure on her to mine for truth. The burden of truth and change should rest on the shoulders of the betrayer. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse test . Key Points From this episode: How Marriage Counseling After Betrayal Misses the Real Issue How His Lying Undermines Your Confidence and Emotional Safety Couple Therapy is for People Who Tell The Truth, Not Liars Moving on After Betrayal is Not as Simple as People Think Is Online Betrayal Actually Cheating? TRANSCRIPT: WHEN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING MAKES HIS CHEATING “OUR PROBLEM” Anne: I have Hannah, a member of our community on today’s episode. Welcome, Hannah. Hannah: Hi Anne. How are you? Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today. Why don’t we start with your story. Hannah: Yeah, I am about a year out from finding everything out that changed my life forever. I was married for about 12 years. We had five kids. I had known him most of my life. We were best friends. We’re Christian. I was very active in our church community, and even in high school I was involved in youth work, and I was a huge anti-porn advocate. My husband knew all this about me. We talked about this kind of thing nearly daily, as we’re also raising kids, just like how we protect them from the world. We prayed every day together, and then one day he decided to drop the bomb on me, that he had been lying to me since before we were married, that he had been watching porn, and that he had also had a four year affair with a colleague. So he decided to come clean to me. I was completely blindsided. Over the last year, I’ve been realizing the subtle ways, like he was a very good liar, and I do feel like he had this complete double life. I was really grateful to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because it was the only resource I found online that didn’t make me want to throw my computer or phone across the room. Because everything was very much just talking about my part in it, which to me felt so wrong. WHEN COUNSELING FOR CHEATING MISSES EMOTIONAL ABUSE Hannah: I knew I wasn’t perfect, what human being is? I knew that throughout our whole marriage, I had been self-reflecting. I had been not keeping score. Anytime we had any kind of conflict, I was all about finding solutions. I was always leaning into our marriage and trying harder. Also when it came to the betrayal, the pornography use. A lot of resources say maybe you didn’t ask, or maybe you were naive. I had asked all the questions. We had all the conversations. I had been checking in all these things, and it was just a lie every time with counseling for cheating. So to be met with what was your part in it? Or anything like that made me angry right from the start. And I just knew that this isn’t something that I contributed to somehow. And at that, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, that’s definitely how you frame things. This is abuse. Abuse is one sided. That’s my story in a nutshell. It has been an awful year, and I still most days can’t believe this is my life. That I had this husband, who I thought we were soulmates, best friends. I thought I knew him so well. I’ve been coming to this realization that I could have just gone down to the nearest bar and been like, You sir, you’re attractive. Let’s go get married. And it would’ve been the same outcome. Because I did all the things. We talked about this stuff constantly. I think people think, he was doing this thing and it’s not a big deal. FINDING OUT HE HAD BEEN LYING THE WHOLE TIME Hannah: Like it was his private life that he kept private. No, you don’t understand the amount of lies, blatant lies, subtle lies, lies of omission, but also the things that we would do together. Like, we sit down to watch a movie. We weren’t like the average couple who’s just oh, put on HBO. We don’t watch HBO, we look up every movie before we watch it, because we’re protecting our marriage, protecting our family. From all the trash out there. Our kids have minimal screen time, they’re not on devices, so that’s exactly the type of thing we’re trying to protect them from. So for him to come out and be like, “Oh yeah, by the way, for our entire marriage, I’ve been watching pornography, and I also had a girlfriend for a huge chunk of our marriage.” Anne: Why now? He’s been lying to you the whole time. I’m sure that’s crossed your mind. Hannah: Oh, it has. I can tell you what he says versus what I think. Anne: Probably a lie, right? Since he is lied about everything else. Hannah: A very close friend of mine called me up and told me that she had discovered that her husband had been watching pornography. So I was very upset and obviously like always I went to my husband. And the thing that gets me about that is, it’s not the first time this has happened. I would read some horrible story on the internet, in the communities that I was in. And I’d go to my husband and be like, oh, this poor woman, she just found out she has cervical cancer, ‘Cause her husband cheated on her. I WANTED TO LEAVE, BUT COULDN’T Hannah: These types of stories. So that alone isn’t enough, because it’s not like it was the first time, but it was someone very close to me. And also close to him. Anne: I wonder if, because it was someone really close to you. He thought, well, maybe this is the time to tell her because this other person did it. Hannah: So I was like talking to him every evening when he came home from work about this couple. My heart was breaking for them. I was in constant contact with my friend, checking with her, wanting to spend time with her. So I was actually planning to go away that weekend to spend the weekend with her. And then he dropped the bomb on me before I left. Anne: Maybe it was to stop you from going. Hannah: It could have been. Anne: Because, these liars don’t think too much about long-term consequences, or counseling for cheating. Hannah: Looking back, something that haunts me a lot is the fact that in those weeks leading up. He asked me, “What would you do if?” I was obviously caught off guard. I mean, excuse me? Are you trying to tell me something? Like, why would you say that? I told him, “I would pack up the kids, and I would go to my mother’s, and you would maybe never see us again.” I didn’t mince words. Funny story, my reaction, I was paralyzed. I couldn’t pack up any kids. I was trashed, laying on the floor, not eating or sleeping, not able to drive a car. In my mind, I wanted to leave, but physically could not. WHEN HE USES THE TRUTH TO MANIPULATE YOU Anne: I had that same thing where I told my husband that. And then found out I couldn’t do it. I’ve come to believe now. This is 10 years post-divorce, and failed counseling for cheating, that he wanted me to do that. He was like, “Okay, I’m gonna tell her and then she’ll leave.” And because I didn’t. Then, at least in my situation, he was like, “Oh, shoot, now I have to act like I am repenting.” Because he didn’t know what to do when I didn’t do the thing he wanted me to do. Because the same thing, he could have told me a million other times, why did he tell me right then? Hannah: There were so many moments when I asked him explicitly. Have you done this? Would you do this? Where I asked to check his phone. I felt like a terrible person. I have this amazing, good, trustworthy husband, and I’m being this paranoid, crazy person. And him being like, sure, of course. But obviously sweating bullets, because he knew that there was a possibility that something could happen. So when he did tell me, I couldn’t drive, I couldn’t sleep, but the next morning I made him drive me to my sister’s house. I said we’re leaving right now. I had all these other health issues at the time that I physically can’t drive. So I think that in his mind he was so deluded, he still thought it was somehow going to be okay. But for me, it was like the whole unraveling of everything. Like any marriage, we’d had our struggles and then to find out that this was going on underneath it all the whole time, for me it was very much a, what’s left? I SAW THE SIGNS THAT HE DIDN’T CARE Hannah: The only thing I was clinging to in this marriage was that you’re this good, faithful, loyal man who’s trustworthy and honest. And turns out you weren’t even that. And I’ve been making all these excuses. He’s tired, he works so hard. The honeymoon phase is over. This is just marriage. So we’re not crazy in love anymore, but we deeply love each other. That’s what I was thinking. And meanwhile, these were all symptoms that he actually didn’t care. Anne: Oh, that’s so heartbreaking. Before you found out, had you been to couple therapy, had you done marriage intensives or counseling for cheating? Hannah: There were moments in our marriage where I checked in with him. “I feel like we’re having a lot of petty fights. Are we okay? I feel like you’re ignoring me a lot, like what’s going on?” There were times when I felt like it was getting to the point that, okay, I think we need counseling for cheating. And I said that to him, and I asked for it, and his reaction was, no, absolutely not. That didn’t surprise me, just because I feel like that’s the way both of us were raised. Our parents think it’s good for someone else, but they’re not gonna do it. “We can get through this. We don’t need some professional meddling in our lives.” Then it would be good for a while, now that I’ve reflected on all these years. I can see it more clearly that he would avoid me and treat me poorly. Then if I started to question it, he would love bomb me and make it okay. He would bring me flowers or he would say something to make it feel all better. HOW HE BENEFITTED FROM MY WORK ON THE MARRIAGE Hannah: I was like relationship low maintenance. I didn’t need him to be Prince Charming all the time. He just had to come home and tell me he loved me and that everything was good, and I just believed him. I would let it go. I thought we went on dates and did things to invest in our marriage, but now that I look back, I planned it, or I nagged you to plan it. And it never was like, “You’re planning these things for me, or for us.” We actually went to marriage retreats to reconnect. But now looking back at that, it’s just cements the betrayal even more. We’re sitting there talking all day about our relationship. And what we can do differently and how we can improve. And you’re just sitting on all this information. These are all the reasons you’re passive aggressive, angry, a little bit volatile, all these things. That explains a lot. I would feel that way too if I was hiding this entire secret life from you. I would be anxious and irritable. Anne: Mm-hmm. Hannah: We never did any kind of counseling for cheating. I thought it was communication. I think I am a terrible communicator. And I think you need to work on your communication too. I just leaned in, I read books, did different things. The typical marriage advice is, don’t keep score and forgive your spouse. You shouldn’t be dwelling on their faults. That’s the type of thing I was doing. Which now makes me feel like I’m a giver, he’s a taker. It made me a very easy target, constantly giving into the relationship. PEOPLE IN HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS DON’T NEED COUNSELING FOR CHEATING Anne: I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, that people in healthy relationships do that naturally. We know that people aren’t perfect. With a healthy relationship with someone who’s not perfect and we’re not perfect, we know that people make mistakes. We know there’s gonna be communication issues, stuff like that. We don’t have to read a book that tells us that people make mistakes. So the people reading the book, we who married an abusive man. I’m almost like those books should never have been written, because the only people reading them are women who are married to an abusive man. Hannah: Oh my goodness, you’re so right. Anne: People in healthy relationships don’t read books like that ’cause they don’t need to. They don’t need counseling for cheating, ’cause they already know. Oh, that was just a communication problem. Hannah: It makes so much sense. One book I read, it even said in the book, you just need to do this, and this week you should work on giving words of affirmation to your husband. Or plan something for him. And at this point you might be feeling like, what is he doing for me? But don’t reflect on that. And I remember being like, okay, I’m not going to. That was a turning point for me where I cemented into my character, that I am not going to keep score. WHY NOT KEEP SCORE? Hannah: If this is neglect, he’s not investing in the relationship, he’s not paying attention to you. And the kind of things I thought was when is the last time he held my hand? Why am I always the one reaching out for physical contact? Why is it that every time he touches me, he wants something more? He doesn’t wanna sit next to me. When we’re out in public, he’s far away from me, and he’s okay with that. Why am I always the one feeling like I’m chasing him? That book shouldn’t have been written. Anne: No, that’s what I mean. I don’t think people keep score in healthy relationships. They don’t need counseling for cheating. I’m saying this tongue in cheek, but like, why not keep score? What’s wrong with being like, wait a minute, I do all this stuff and he doesn’t. In fact, when it comes to abuse, it’s almost the opposite. Literally, write down these are all the household tasks that I do all the time, and these are the ones that he does. And then just look at that list, see what that looks like. How many hours a day do we have? And if he’s not abusive, you could take that to him and say, you know what? I actually wrote all this down. And look at the disparity between our household tasks. A non-abusive person would be like. Wow, maybe I should stop watching so much football. Where an abusive person would be like, you don’t respect me at my job! What’s wrong with assessing the truth of the situation, which is essentially what they’re saying when they say don’t keep score. They’re basically saying, “Don’t assess what’s really happening.” COUPLE THERAPY IS FOR PEOPLE WHO TELL THE TRUTH Hannah: Yeah, when you’re on the abuse side of it, what marriage counselors say is all wrong. None of it works. Which is actually why I wrote to BTR, why I wanted to speak to you. What does counseling for cheating look like if you stay with your partner? Because I feel like with that history of abuse, that never goes away. If the person does genuinely change and stops all their abusive behaviors, and then you’re rebuilding trust and in this relationship with someone. How do you approach counseling for cheating in the future? Because it’s unethical. Even if it’s 10 years down the road and you’ve stayed together. For the women staying and are rebuilding their trust. What do you do? Anne: Yeah, so couple therapy is for essentially healthy marriages. It’s for two people who tell the truth, genuinely care about each other, have integrity, and make good choices. And they’re having trouble communicating or something. All the marriages I know that are like that, where they genuinely care about each other, where they’re both honest, they would never need to go to couple therapy. So the whole idea of couple therapy now to me is frankly ridiculous. If it were as healthy as it needs to be to go to couple therapy, you wouldn’t ever need to go. Hannah: This dynamic seems unethical. The therapist automatically has to side with you. If this was any other kind of abuse, they wouldn’t put you in the same room, and they will have to side with you. So even if you were doing something wrong. They have to look at it through the lens of okay, but you’ve been traumatized. IS COUNSELING FOR CHEATING UNETHICAL? Anne: They would ethically have to, but I’ve never met a therapist that does in counseling for cheating. The very foundation of it is family systems theory, basically their ethical standards bind them to not see a perpetrator and a victim. If they do, they have to stop doing the therapy. Hannah: Right. Anne: ‘Cause it’s not ethical. So if they’re not noticing the abuse and doing the therapy, that’s unethical. And then the second they noticed it, which should be right away, but most of them aren’t doing screenings for it. They should quit, but most don’t. So I think all couple therapy is not a good idea, because healthy couples who don’t lie to each other don’t need to go to couple therapy. Hann

There is no fear or pain quite like the trauma a woman experiences when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Whether it’s through the family court system, co-parenting, or everyday chaos, abusers know one of the most effective ways to harm a woman is through her children. If you’re going through this and need support, come to our online support group for betrayal trauma . FIVE TRUTHS: WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU My ex husband’s emotional abuse didn’t stop after divorce . I thought leaving would end the chaos. It didn’t. It just changed form. In my case: My ex husband used the kids to create more chaos. He undermined their care and disrupted their schedules by canceling appointments and refusing to take them to activities. The system didn’t protect me . I believed that if I showed the truth in family court, they’d support me in protecting my children. What actually happened: When I went back to court six years later to request a reduction in his parenting time…they granted him more. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the system doesn’t always see his interference for what it is. Doing more didn’t fix it . I had documented everything and communicated my reasonable requests clearly. But: None of that changed his behavior. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, more communication and effort on your part just gives him more material to twist, escalate, and use against you later. He didn’t want resolution, he wanted control I kept thinking we could figure it out. That we could land on something that worked for the kids. But his goal wasn’t peace, or parenting, it was control. He contradicted what I said, ignored what the kids needed, and created conflict, even when it made no sense. Strategy, not effort, is what changed everything . The turning point wasn’t trying harder. It was doing something completely different. For me: I stopped focusing on getting him to understand, or getting the court to fix it. When your ex uses the kids to hurt you, the only thing that changes the outcome is strategy. This led me to develop the strategies that eventually became my workshop that teaches women what to do after betrayal . And about a year later…everything changed. LETTING ANGER FUEL STRATEGIC ACTION Abusive men use the courtroom to not only torment victims, but also to manipulate court professionals and seek validation. They don’t want parenting time or a peaceful resolution, they want to win. It’s impossible to co parenting with a narcissistic parent . They want chaos and enjoy the fight. To know if your ex is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz . When he uses the kids to hurt you in the courtroom, it is essential that you seek support, practice radical self-compassion and self-care, and develop good boundaries. Family court systems all over the world are broken. Outcomes are completely unpredictable. However, you can determine now to love and accept yourself no matter what happens. You can determine now to surround yourself with people who love you and build you up. You will need support and community as you face your abuser in the courtroom. It’s understandable and reasonable to be angry. Your anger is a powerful force that can drive you to take action. Anger is a catalyst for change. The reason why so many people fear an angry woman is because an angry woman is unstoppable—she takes action and challenges the status quo. This is precisely why abusers and oppressors work so hard to suppress women’s anger. They know it can dismantle their control. Anger, when channeled constructively, becomes a tool for empowerment, inspiring bold steps toward justice. WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU: ABUSE BY PROXY If an abuser harms or manipulates the children to harm you, it’s known as “abuse by proxy.” This tactic involves using the children as tools to control, intimidate, or emotionally damage you, often by turning them against you or causing them emotional distress. It is considered a severe and harmful form of post-separation abuse, with long-lasting effects on both the targeted parent and the children involved. TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU Anne: It’s just me today. You’re about to hear something that I recorded years ago before I really understood what my ex-husband was doing to me and my children, and I certainly didn’t know what to do about it. At the time of the recording, I was divorced. On paper, I had a decent custody arrangement. But behind the scenes, my ex is an attorney and he was still emotionally and psychologically abusing me and neglecting the needs of our children on almost a daily basis. In fact, he still is now. I have a son with a processing disorder. He was undermining his medical care. Canceling his appointments. He refused to support any of our children’s extracurricular activities. Every day was chaotic. So I did what I thought was in the best interest of my children. I went back to court thinking that if I could just present the truth, things would get better for my kids. Instead, he got more custody. I was devastated, and you’ll hear that in my voice in this recording. Fighting a narcissist for custody is awful. If you’re in a situation where your ex-husband is using the kids to hurt you. These are a few things that I wish I understood back then. THINGS I LEARNED THE HARD WAY, WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU First. If you share kids, emotional abuse doesn’t stop after divorce. It just changes how it shows up. Since he can’t control you directly, he’ll use the kids to control whatever he can. Second. The civil court system is not likely going to protect you from his ongoing abuse. In fact, they’ll probably think that you’re making it up or that you’re overreacting. Now, this isn’t true. I totally get it. They perceive that just two adults can’t get along. They don’t understand the truth. There’s no way that you can get along with someone who is undermining you and lying all the time. Third, doing more doesn’t fix it. I tried being clear, cooperative, reasonable. None of it helped. Fourth, it was hard to wrap my head around the fact that he actually did not want solutions. He wanted all the privileges of being a parent without any of the responsibility. Once I understood that, everything started to make more sense. Fifth for me, strategy, not effort, changed everything. My turning point was not trying harder. It was actually doing something completely different. I’m a woman of faith and I believe in God and I study the scriptures a lot, so I’m gonna talk about how I came to know these strategies. We are interfaith inner paradigm here. So even if you’re not religious or you don’t believe in God, hopefully the way I explain these strategies will be helpful to you. ‘ Cause right after I recorded this, I was so devastated I changed my prayers. I started asking God, like what strategies I should use so that he could deliver my children from their emotionally abusive father. And that question led me to study the scriptures on betrayal and deliverance and to pray. DISCOVERING STRATEGIES THAT WORK WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU More importantly, discover these amazing strategies that did deliver us from his chaos. We’re completely free from him now, and it’s awesome. These aren’t courtroom strategies or communication strategies to get him to understand. They were strategies that reduced his ability to create chaos in our lives. So after using them for about a year, my ex signed what I called my miracle decree where his parent time was only one short weekend a month from Friday night to Sunday night, only two holidays a year, every spring break and Thanksgiving, and only two weeks during the summer. And I was given full decision making power. So as a result of this, my children had significantly less exposure to him and I didn’t have to deal with his like constant chaos, undermining the kids or using the kids to basically harass me with long legalese type messages. WRITING THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY WORKSHOP Because they worked for me, I wanted to know if they would work for other women. So there were about five women who were going through what I was going through, and I said, “Are you willing to try these strategies? They did and these women said it changed everything. After I knew, this wasn’t just a fluke. We replicated it with five different women. I created the Betrayal Trauma Workshop, so every woman who was going through this could learn it. In fact, we used the real life messages of the five women we worked with for the Workshop. So in section three, communication strategies, you’ll see their messages, and I think you’ll be surprised that they’re really similar to what you experienced. As you listen to this recording from the past, remember that at the time I recorded it, I didn’t know any of the strategies. We hadn’t been delivered. If you’re like, “Ah, I’m there, I’m where Anne was.” I want you to know that I totally understand what you’re going through, and there is a way out. These strategies really can protect your peace and your children’s peace without court even if he doesn’t change, but especially if he doesn’t change. For more information about my Betrayal Trauma Workshop and these strategies, click this link . LOOKING BACK, THIS CHANGED EVERYTHING Okay, let’s cue the recording. Most of you know that I am religious, that I follow a faith tradition, I’m Christian. Specifically a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am grateful for the foundation that provides me of faith and hope in God and my Savior, Jesus Christ. For you non-religious listeners, atheists or agnostics, you are welcome here. We’re so glad you’re here, and I’m so grateful that you listen and are part of this. Because this issue affects every woman, regardless of her paradigm, her faith, or the way that she sees the world. PARABLE OF THE WHEAT & THE TARES Anne: I’ve been studying the parable of the wheat and the tares. For women of Christian faith, you’re probably familiar with the wheat and the tares. For everyone else, please indulge me. In Matthew 13, verse 25, where it says, but while men slept. Sometimes I wonder if that means that while the clergy, legal system, and basically any man who could stop the abuse, but won’t. They will not hold the abuser accountable. They won’t believe us or listen to us. That as these men sleep, the children of the devil grew and grew until you could see their fruits, basically, is what this is talking about. Many victims of abuse try to justify not setting healthy boundaries with the abuser, because he’s “a child of God.” Well, he’s a child of God. So I’m going to love him, God loves him. But that doesn’t mean he’s not hurting our kids. But in this parable, starting in Matthew 13, it clearly states that there are children of the “wicked one.” And I’ve been thinking about the way the scriptures, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, describe men who are not obeying the commandments. They don’t say, and he didn’t obey the commandments because he felt shame. They actually call them a word. And the word they call them is wicked. This is a common term used throughout the scriptures. Part of me wonders why don’t we use this term anymore? And part of it is the Christian aversion to passing judgment. But Christ also asks us to decipher between good and evil. That’s part of the reason why we’re here on earth. There are those of us who have set boundaries. SETTING BOUNDARIES WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU Anne: We’ve removed everything the abuser can use to hurt us. Essentially, there’s nothing left for them to use to hurt us, except for one thing, our children. Your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Because they’re the dad, they can assert control that way. Every day, I hear stories of sheroes, victims of abuse, who are not believed or supported by their churches. Every day, I hear about how their children, these children of wicked men and righteous mothers. Are dragged through chaos and pain regarding custody in the courts, because the wicked have no desire for peace. That’s not their goal. Their goal is to win. I wonder if you would do something with me, and if our whole community will do this. And for you atheists, maybe just hold it like a moment of silence or something that works for you. Like offer it up to the universe. Will you pray every morning and night for the next 30 days that the tares can be gathered and burned? Talking about that classic parable from Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares. I know it’s apocalyptic. It sounds intense. We’ve also talked so much about boundaries on this podcast. Healthy boundaries in marriage separate us from harm. No matter what boundaries you use, they can still actually be abusive. So the only thing you can do is separate yourself from the harm. You can’t stop the harm, but boundaries are definitely the most important and basically the only tool in our toolbox to get to safety. Self sufficiency brings us peace. Boundaries bring us as much peace as possible. Even after we have essentially said, get thee hence to our abusers, these children of the wicked one, they still have a way to hurt us through our children. SCRIPTURAL HELPS & SAFETY Anne: There’s nothing you can do in many cases, when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. We’re not able to command armies like the men in the scriptures to protect their families when they go to war. We don’t have that ability, but we do have an army of angels to help us. One of my favorite scriptures regarding the wheat and the tares says, behold verily, I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night. Who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields. And then another scripture in Mormon 8 verses 40 through 41 says, Yea, why do you build secret abominations to gain and cause that the widows should mourn before the Lord. And also orphans to mourn before the Lord for vengeance upon your heads? Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you, and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you. For he will not suffer their cries any longer. The parable of the wheat and the tares is related to Matthew 24:40. Where the scriptures say, Then shall two be in the field, and one shall be taken, and the other left. CALL FOR PRAYERS FOR PEACE & DELIVERANCE Anne: Will you pray with me morning and night for the next 30 days? That the tares in our lives, the children of the wicked one that are fully ripe and have the fruits to prove their wickedness. Will be removed from our lives so that we can have peace? Here’s another scripture. In second Nephi 26, three through four, it talks about the wheat and the tares. It says, and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish. And they perish because they cast out the righteous (women). I’m paraphrasing there, and stone them and slay them. Wherefore, the cry of the victims of abuse shall ascend up to God from the ground against them. Verse four, where for all those who are proud and that do wickedly. The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, for they shall be as stubble. And in Isaiah 35:4 we read, say to them that are of a fearful heart, be strong, fear not, behold, your God will come in vengeance. Even God with a recompense, he will come and save you. Personally speaking, you may have heard several podcasts where I said I was going through a difficult thing. And I didn’t say much about it, because it had to do with a custody case regarding my children. Which I actually lost. So I wanted to share with you that I did everything right. PERSONAL CUSTODY STRUGGLES WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU Anne: I was honest. I was forthright. I said my concerns and the people involved just did not believe me. And I saw the writing on the wall. I lost and settled the case. As a result, my children have a much more difficult custody schedule. Something else that came out of that was that instead of going through my dad. I know I’ve talked for years about how we’ve communicated through my dad, and I’ve done no contact. It became obvious to me that the court did not like that at all. So I switched from my dad being the mediator to using the Our Family Wizard app. I don’t have it on my phone, but I do have it on my computer, and I check it every day. That’s another way I don’t get emails, phone calls or texts that trigger me. So that it’s at least separated from me, all the contact goes through Our Family Wizard . That’s been working really well. A lot of prayer to figure out how to do this right. It’s been a process. So my custody situation is worse for my children now. Things are very hard, and I’ve just recognized that the court system, the clergy system, the religious system, really doesn’t help victims. We really do have to be our own sheroes. REPORTING ABUSE CAN BE UNSAFE Anne: If you have physical abuse happening, reporting is a good idea, but it can be unsafe in so many ways. So if you have something criminal to report. I highly recommend you schedule an individual session with Coach Renee, who can help coach you on how to do that with your local authorities. The outcome obviously cannot be guaranteed, but to give you the best experience possible, because it’s going to be traumatic. Regardless, the court system is a mess. I brought Tina Swithin on and Wendy Hernandez, and I’ve just been doing a ton of study on custody things. And really, the conclusion I came to is that God is our only hope, or the universe, or whatever you believe in, but for me it’s God. Our only hope for justice is through our Heavenly Parents, and our Savior, Jesus Christ. I’ve turned my heart to Him and realize that there isn’t anything worldly that can protect me in this instance. Where I share children with my abuser. The laws require us to maintain contact with the man who harmed us. He continues to lie and abuse, harming us and our children. So after losing this case, me Anne, I don’t know everything you guys know. I don’t know everything. I’m just like you and I’m in the process of learning, but I thought I could figure it out. Like I followed Tina Swithin’s advice. I followed Wendy Hernandez’s advice. I had a good attorney, and I prayed, prayed, and prayed. It still didn’t go the way I wanted. So here are a few things I’ve come to grips with. HOPE & FAITH IN GOD Anne: One part of me wonders if the reason I didn’t win and why things are harder for my children is because I believe God asked me to start this organization and to podcast here. My ex used the kids to hurt me. Maybe your ex uses the kids to hurt you. He’s asked me to talk to you. In the past when I said, do no contact. And you guys were like, it’s hard to do no contact. The court won’t let me. I was like, no, you can do it. Now I’m thinking, man, I never had that experience when the court was like, no, you can’t do that. Now here I am. So. I wanted to empathize and apologize if I made it seem easy. Because for six years, my custody situation was fantastic, and then my ex got remarried. And with that, he has his new wife to care for the kids. So of course he wanted to take them more, because he doesn’t have to take care of them. Now that I’m here, my heart goes out to all of us who have been through this, and I’m sorry if I made it seem easy before. It’s not, it’s really hard. Also, for all of us who have done everything right, we’ve done every single thing. We have reported crimes, set boundaries, and separated ourselves from the harm. And we’re still not able to actually stop the harm to our children. It is the most excruciating difficult situation. And it’s long term, and it reminds me of the people in the scriptures who are in bondage. The Israelites and in the Book of Mormon, there are Nephites in bondage. This bondage scenario keeps coming to me over and over again. WHEN YOUR EX USES THE KIDS TO HURT YOU, PRAY FOR DELIVERANCE Anne: So in additio

Are you looking for the best emotional abuse support groups online ? Here’s what you need to know. 1. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE HAVE OTHER RESOURCES? The best emotional abuse support groups online have educational resources like a podcast, workshops, or even quizzes to help you understand exactly what’s happening to you. For example, did you know there are over 19 different types of emotional abuse? Take our free emotional abuse test to see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types. 2. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE COVER ALL TYPES OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE? If the emotional abuse support groups online don’t understand betrayal trauma, which is trauma resulting from emotional abuse caused by infidelity and deceit, then the group may not meet your needs. 3. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE MEET MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY IN ALL TIME ZONES? There’s no telling when your husband will be emotionally abusive. When something happens and you need support right away, consider attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session for emotional abuse. Check out the Group Session schedule. 4. DO THE EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE ACTUALLY HELP YOU GET TO EMOTIONAL SAFETY? A lot of support groups blame you for what’s going on. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we never victim blame. Instead, we help victims figure out exactly what’s going on and what to do next through our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop . Key takeaways from this interview: The Long History of Women Being Left Without Support How a Culture of Misogyny Undermines Legal Support for Women How Institutional Betrayal Creates More Trauma When Leaders Fail to Enact Policies that Support Women Why So Many Women Don’t Know What to Search For TRANSCRIPT: HERE’S WHAT MAKES THE BEST EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE Anne: I have Elizabeth Estabrooks, MSW on today’s episode. She’s a writer, speaker, author with subject matter expertise on survivors of personal violence gained during her nearly 30 year career. She holds a bachelor’s degree in gender studies and political science from Eastern Oregon University and a Master of Science and Social Work from Columbia University. From 2021 to 2022, she served on the VA National Domestic Violence Task Force. The secretary’s task force on inclusion, diversity, equity and access. The VA Sexual Assault Prevention Committee and the National Gender Policy Council Work Group. Her book, Broken in the Stronger Places: From Resilience to Resourcefulness is a memoir that spends her life from joining the military through her exit from the VA and the one year solo healing road trip that followed. We are talking about the lack of emotional abuse support groups online or support in general. Welcome, Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me here, Anne. Anne: Were you in the military before you became a domestic violence expert? Elizabeth: Yes, I was in the military. It was post Vietnam. They had done away with the draft. And there had been a lot of changes. Women have served since the American Revolution. But many people are unaware, for a long time only 2% of the military could be women, and they couldn’t be officers. There was a lot they couldn’t do. For black women, it was even worse. WASPs were the Women’s Air Service Pilots. SERVICE WOMEN’S FIGHT FOR SUPPORT FROM THE MILITARY Anne: They are so inspiring, by the way. I encourage everyone to look them up. Elizabeth: Oh, it was amazing. Mostly white, but there were some Japanese women and there was one, indigenous woman. I don’t think black women were allowed. Because there was so much discrimination. Anne: Mm hmm, There were no emotional abuse support groups online. Elizabeth: So these women entered and they received special training so it was a big deal. The WASPs, flew 60 million miles. They flew into danger, all that stuff. When the war ended, the military sent women home without so much as a benefit or anything. There were a number of women who died in service and their family members were responsible for paying the money to send them home from England or wherever they were. The military considered women not real military members. That was the status of women. So in 1948, Truman signed the Women Armed Forces Integration Act, post World War II. It gave women full-time permanent status in the military. The exception prior to that act was that a certain number of nurses could remain ’cause they needed medical. And so as time went on, it began increasing. After the draft ended, volunteerism among men decreased, and they were having trouble staffing up the military. There were the WACs, Women’s Army Corps. The Navy informally called women WAVES. They had separate training. Their training included things like how to wear makeup. WE HAVE TO DO BETTER FOR WOMEN Elizabeth: Then they disbanded in 1977. Jimmy Carter, being a feminist, said, “We have to do better.” The military started to send women to co-ed basic training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina. I was in the second wave of women to go through co-ed. Anne: I feel honored to talk to you right now. This is a huge deal, and I am so proud of you. Helping women who had no emotional abuse support groups online or any other support. Elizabeth: Thank you. So, I talk about this in my book. We’re all a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds. You start at the welcome center, and then you get on the bus, and they take you to the company where you do your basic training. There’s camaraderie, we’re all joking and laughing, and being a bunch of teenage boys and girls. And we got off the bus and hustled into a formation, which was ragged as hell. ‘Cause we didn’t know what it was. The drill sergeants say to us, “This is your family now.” There were five male drill sergeants. “We help each other out.” They said, “Look to your front, look to your back, look to your left, look to your right. These are your brothers and sisters. They will always be there for you. They will always have your back.” And in the next breath, literally they said, “And for you females out there understand that we think there is no place in this man’s army for girls. And we’re gonna spend the next eight weeks showing you just how much we mean that. If we have anything to do with it, not one of y’all will make it through. EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: ADDRESSING MISOGYNISTIC CULTURE Elizabeth: Being in the field you’re in, you understand how that sets a culture. It set the tone to the men that had just been our buddies. Suddenly, we were othered and heard mumbles of, “Yeah, you don’t belong here, and we don’t have to be nice to you.” The drill sergeants just gave permission.” When I wrote the book, it occurred to me that what they did was set the direction of our future. Sexual harassment, you’re going to experience it and we don’t give a damn. So just deal with it. We’re gonna encourage it so that you’ll leave. There were no resources, no emotional abuse support groups online. Throughout basic training, there was a lot of real sexualized, misogynistic stuff that happened. From there, I went on to my training. I was in supply at Fort Lee, Virginia. That was only moderately better. We had more freedom, so we weren’t just confined to being in formation all the time and being with our drill sergeants. We would be walking by, say, a billet full of men. And they would literally hang out the windows and yell obscenities at us. If they were standing on the streets, they would grab their crotches, they would make all the obscene sounds and gestures that you can imagine. THE LAW ALLOWED WOMEN TO SERVE, THE CULTURE TRIED TO PUSH THEM OUT Elizabeth: That program at the time was a go at your own pace thing. It was a 12 week program, but you could get out anytime you finished. So I finished it six weeks, because I was like, I gotta get the hell outta here. Anne: Yeah. Elizabeth: Then I was stationed in Kissingen, Germany at Harvey Barracks. I was the first woman in my company, and one of only, maybe not even a hundred on the whole base. It was brutal. It was constant harassment, constantly grabbed, assaulted in various ways. I consider myself lucky. I was one of the few women never raped during her military service. This was ongoing. Every minute of every day I was in uniform on base. Anne: I am so sorry. The overall feeling would have to be that my government doesn’t care about me as much as men. Elizabeth: That’s the vibe. Yeah, we were only there because the law forced them to have us there. Anne: That is so sad. It’s also so awful that the culture would permit people to treat other citizens like that, people who have signed up for service. Elizabeth: At that time, Ruth Bader Ginsburg made it possible for pregnant women to remain in the military. Up until that time, if you got pregnant while in the military, legally they could throw you out. Even though you could have a baby while in the military, you couldn’t join the military if you had babies unless you gave up custody. THE DOUBLE STANDARDS OF MILITARY POLICY Anne: Wow, so no man has to give up custody to join the military, but women do. Elizabeth: I said that exactly to the recruiter. And he said, “Oh, they’ve got wives and mothers. We don’t need to worry about them with their children.” Anne: That’s crazy. Elizabeth: He said that to me. He was such an asshole. So my friend couldn’t join, because she was like, “I’m not giving up my children to join the military. That’s never gonna happen.” We were gonna join the buddy system, so I signed my name on the dotted line. I had no idea, I was 18 years old. Anne: I wanna just point out to you that you did the same thing that every other 18-year-old man would do. You’re not any different than any other person who’s joined the military. Elizabeth: Thank you. That was my entrance into the military. I didn’t know they could discriminate. I didn’t know all that because I was a young feminist. So I understood discrimination, pay gap, and all of that stuff, even at that age. So I was shocked when I began understanding. Anne: Institutional mIsogyny, with no emotional abuse support groups online. Elizabeth: That’s exactly right. I stayed in, they tried to push me out, but I said, “No, I know my rights. I get to stay in the military as a pregnant and or single mother.” When you joined, and I think it’s the same way today, it was a six year enlistment. So it could be any combination of six. It could be a full six years active duty, it could be three years active, three years inactive, two years, whatever that combination was. EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: I GOT A SHELTER FUNDED Elizabeth: They had told me when I joined, okay, you’re active duty for three years, and then you have to join the reserves. Stay at the reserves for three years when you get out. They told me when I left, “You’re a hundred percent done. We don’t want you, you can’t ever rejoin.” And today women can rejoin. Then a friend asked me to join the board of the local Domestic Violence Crisis Intervention Center. And that started my career in the field of domestic violence and sexual assaults. I eventually became the director, and there was a lot going on around that. OJ Simpson had killed Denise Brown and Ron Goldman. When something national like that happens, it instills fear in every survivor and victim across the country. There are now emotional abuse support groups online at BTR. No matter how long they’ve been separated from their abusive partner, we were dealing with that. I got a shelter funded, and eventually I got my bachelor’s degree in gender studies and political science. I expanded my vision and my work. So I did community safety. I did gender specific services, for most of my career. The government had a huge budgetary crisis. All my contracts were with government agencies. They all got canceled ’cause they were all about domestic violence, sexual assault, and gender specific sources. That was deemed unimportant, and that’s when I focused on women veterans. So all the time before that, I had focused on communities, civilian women. THE SECONDARY TRAUMA OF INSTITUTIONAL BETRAYAL Elizabeth: Although looking back, I know that there were probably some women veterans I was helping, and I just didn’t realize, ’cause I didn’t talk about being a veteran. Women then didn’t talk about being a veteran, and many still don’t today. Everything I did was on women veterans and sexual assault in the military. So when you’ve had experiences of harassment, assault, and or rape in the military that cause trauma. They call it military sexual trauma. And I didn’t learn until years later that I had that. Anne: I’m so sorry for everything you’ve been through. And also so proud of you that you kept putting one foot in front of the other, you kept providing for yourself and your family. Um, with all your experience, can you talk about just some overall themes that you see in relation to domestic violence in general, perhaps specifically in the military, but perhaps more like culturally? Because I think the military has its own culture, obviously, but it’s also sort of indicative of the overall culture. So maybe you could talk about how those all intersect. And how emotional abuse support groups online could help. Elizabeth: That is so true, the difference is that when their partner assaults them, or someone in the military assaults them. They also face extreme institutional betrayal. We know that women are sexually harassed in their work places, and Anita Hill brought that to light. They don’t talk about it because of so much fear. Women in the military, even if they talk about it, it’s like tough We have to stay. THE MINDSET OF A MISOGYNISTIC CULTURE Elizabeth: I complained about it multiple times. They forced me to remain there to work and deal with this on my own. Nobody at my company cared except for my platoon sergeant, but he was never around. The leaders in my workspace didn’t care. They would laugh it off. So there was no one, no one who cared. Women face that even in today’s military. And men are also sexually assaulted. But as you and I know, we will not stop assault against men until we do something about the misogynistic culture that drives and promotes sexual assault and harassment against women. We know that when women are raped or sexually assaulted they’re called feminine pejoratives, bitch, pussy, slut. These are the terms used against men, because they don’t meet that toxic male culture standard. Anne: It’s not their fault. In the minds of the abusers, if these men weren’t feminine, then they wouldn’t have been assaulted. Because that doesn’t happen to real men. Elizabeth: That’s exactly right. When men in the military talk about being sexually assaulted, they refer to it as hazing. They lessen that, because they’re also called gay or homosexual as an insult. There’s a lot of fear for men. Around that fear for women is that for years, women who were sexually assaulted received dishonorable discharges. They were charged with adultery. And that only ended a few years ago. THEY GET A WHOLE HOSPITAL AND I GET A JANITOR’S CLOSET Anne: Yeah, I can imagine the difference in your story if you showed up at basic training and they said, look to your right, look to your left. You’re all in the same family. We treat everyone with respect, end of story. What a difference that would make from the top. Everyone in our military is a human being who deserves respect. Everyone in our country is a human being. We are tasked with the safety of our country, which includes all citizens. Elizabeth: Yes, we were less likely to get benefits to have our claims approved. The first time I was at the Boise VA, which is one of the best in the nation, it was all very male. They said to me, “Come in for your first appointment, so we can get a baseline, third floor.” And I said, okay. So I go in and take the elevator up to the third floor. And the door opened. I look out and there’s mops, brooms, and buffers. It’s janitorial accoutrement. I was standing there holding the door open. I could see a woman down the hall at a desk. And by this time it’s making this obnoxious elevator, binging sound. She said, “Miss, can I help you?” And I said, “Yeah, I think I have the wrong third floor.” She said, “What are you looking for?” And I said, “I’m looking for women’s help. They said, it’s on the third floor.” And she said, “Yes, ma’am, that’s us.” I just kept standing there and I said, “So just let me make sure I get this right. I served in the same military as the men and they get an entire freaking hospital and I get the janitor’s closet?” She said, “Yes, ma’am. I’m very sorry.” EMOTIONAL ABUSE SUPPORT GROUPS ONLINE: CREATING POLICIES TO SUPPORT WOMEN Elizabeth: We’re laying on a table with our legs in the stirrups. With nothing but a curtain separating us from the janitorial stuff going on in the hallway. And, now there are women’s health clinics in all VAs. It’s so much better. What I always say to women veterans is try it. If I had walked away from the VA that day, I would’ve missed some good care. They passed this public law, which mandated the Center for Women Veterans be opened. And that they focus on policy and care just for women. There are 10 directives and two mandates in that law. And that’s what they’re supposed to follow, hard stop. I was recruited to join the Center for Women Veterans because of the work I had done. So I moved to DC, joined the VA, and everything was going great. I had a wonderful director. We got things done. She had served under four presidents, and she was a phenomenal director and cared deeply about women veterans. And making sure that we were doing the right thing and doing many initiatives. It was fabulous. We worked with all women veterans, not just women who were survivors and victims, right. But those cases generally came to my desk. When women complained or contacted VA, I handled them. And then, things changed. People hired had no knowledge of the VA, of government, of budgeting, of any of that stuff. It became clear to me that my new director was uninterested in following the mandates and directives set under the public law that stood up the Center for Women Veterans. WHEN LEADERS REFUSE TO ENFORCE LAWS THAT SUPPORT WOMEN Elizabeth: A woman was sexually assaulted at a VA by her doctor, and all she wanted was the VA to stop him from working there. At the time, my director said it is VA policy to maintain the employment of medical providers accused of sexual assault, as long as they still hold a medical license in that state. I lost my mind and said to my director, “This policy must be disbanded.” And she said, “There’s nothing I can do about it.” This woman had no emotional abuse support groups online to access. I said, “It’s literally your job to do something about this. The public law demands you do something about this. It’s your mandate.” And she refused. Then there was a woman who, her story of all the thousands of stories I’ve heard, Anne, hers was the worst. It was more brutal than my mind could even comprehend. And I spent decades speaking to women and being empathetic, and I crumbled when it was done. The VA then betrayed and abused her. The next day. I was getting ready for work and sitting on my bed and crying. I texted my boss and said, “I’m not working today.” She said, “Are you okay?” I said, “No, and I will never be okay again.” My psychologist said, “The fact that you got your own sexual trauma and spent 30 years in this field is nothing short of phenomenal that you continue to do this work despite your own trauma. You can never again hear another story. You’re a hundred percent done with this field. It’s to your own mental health detriment if you continue.” ACKNOWLEDGING RE-TRAUMATIZATION Anne: Wow, that’s intense. Elizabeth: Kintsugi, the art, where they repair fine porcelain with gold. In the early nineties, the field of mental health developed a

If you searched “is watching inappropriate media cheating” you’re probably looking for clarity. For a woman who has just discovered what her husband has been secretly doing with his time, it feels like a betrayal because it is . It’s a betrayal if her husband is sharing his energy, attention, and loyalty with other women (thousands of them online). This episode is a two-part conversation with experts from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. This article answers the question: is watching inappropriate media cheating? But it also answers the question underneath it: “Why does my husband’s use of inappropriate media hurt me so much… even if apparently all men do it.” QUICK ANSWER: IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? In marriage, yes . Because it meets the basic definition of cheating: He is engaging in sexual activities and directing sexual energy toward other people, often in secret, while expecting ongoing intimate access to his wife’s trust, body, and partnership. And your gut response to think that he’s cheating is logical. In fact, it’s how most women feel. I’ve interviewed over 200 women who told me how terrible it felt to find out about all his lies, including his lies about how he’s been spending his time online. Over the last almost two decades, my team has helped over 8,000 women thrive after betrayal. So here’s what we know: IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? YES, HERE’S WHY Below is the “wife-brain” list, the one that finally puts words to what you already know. 1) CHEATING IS NOT LIMITED TO PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH ANOTHER PERSON If your husband is pursuing stimulation from searching for and viewing other women online, he’s still directing intimate attention outside the marriage. He may argue “that it doesn’t mean anything” because there’s no physical contact. But your marriage is real and your natural reaction to his choice to pursue arousal with other women is healthy and real. 2) IT’S ALMOST ALWAYS BUILT ON SECRECY AND SECRECY IS BETRAYAL I interviewed Christen Price, an attorney at The NCOSE and we talked about how the strongest tactic of coercive control is lying to maintain power and a preferred narrative. If your husband has a pattern of using hidden or secret apps, unusual password protected accounts, and deflection, anger, or mockery when confronted, that isn’t him just needing “privacy.” He’s engaging deception, which is an obvious marker when asking, “is watching inappropriate media cheating?” 3) IT UNDERMINES INFORMED CONSENT INSIDE YOUR MARRIAGE Women generally consent to a marriage based on a certain set of sexual boundaries that they expect both partners share. If he’s not staying inside those boundaries (and lying about it), she’s not able to consent, either to the relationship itself or to intimacy in the relationship. She’s being kept in the dark so he can keep living a double life. Because he wants to keep the benefits of the relationship, without staying within the boundaries. That’s not partnership. That’s exploitation. 4) IT’S NOT “JUST CONTENT.” IT’S ACTUALLY EVIDENCE OF ABUSE in my interview, Christen defines image-based sexual abuse (IBSA) as the creation, threat, sharing, or use of sexual images/videos without consent or for exploitation. And then she lists what falls under that umbrella: sextortion non-consensual sharing (often called “revenge porn”) hidden-camera recordings (locker rooms, showers, bedrooms, hotel rooms) “upskirting/downblousing” AI-generated or manipulated sexual images made from real photos harassment using sexual content Here’s the gut-punch for wives: Her husband is watching other women being abused. When a husband says, “I would never do anything to hurt you,” he may believe that he’s not harming anyone because he’s just looking at “images.” But the inappropriate media industry involves the abuse and objectification of women, and by choosing to engage with it, he’s supporting it. 5) IT’S RELATIONAL INFIDELITY WHEN HE’S BONDING SEXUALLY WITH SOMEONE ELSE Even if he has no emotional “relationship” with the person he’s aroused by on a screen, if his wife is left with distance, disconnection, and feeling like she’s competing with strangers, that’s infidelity. 6) IT OFTEN COMES WITH GASLIGHTING: “YOU’RE THE PROBLEM” Of course a husband using inappropriate media wants to maintain the narrative “I’m a good guy.” That’s why he lies about it. So when women are hurt by these lies, she gets labeled: insecure controlling prudish too sensitive the reason he does it That type of gaslighting is emotional abuse. To learn more and to see if you’re experiencing this type of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test . 7) IT PUTS WIVES AT REAL RISK, SOMETIMES CRIMINAL RISK In helping women face this type of betrayal for almost two decades, I’ve heard some chillingly specific stories of husbands secretly recording wives in showers or during sex and posting it for financial gain. This is non-consensual recording and distribution. Even if you’re husband isn’t doing this, if he’s watching it, that’s what motivating other men to harm their wives or girlfriends. 8) IT TEACHES MEN THAT THEY’RE ENTITLED TO SEX WITHOUT INTIMACY Even if something is common or deemed acceptable by some people, that doesn’t make it healthy. Melea describes why industries like this resist regulation: they don’t want their profits to decrease. When consumption of inappropriate media is easy, private, and constant, it creates a culture where: women exist for sexualization male arousal is a “need” women’s bodies are commodities Wives often experience the effects of this cultural acceptance as: increased pressure to compete sexually decreased empathy and emotional presence an unwillingness to acknowledge and repair harm And all of these erode the foundation of safety and intimacy that marriage is supposed to be built on. 9) IT IMPACTS KIDS, DIRECTLY AND INDIRECTLY Even the most tech savvy husband who thinks he’s keeping it “private,” can’t guarantee that curious kids, with devices on shared Wi-Fi, won’t be impacted his browsing history. He’s not just risking damage to a marriage. He’s risking the emotional safety of your children. Melea Stevens, board member at The National Center on Sexual Exploitation, talks about a “filter bill”, which creates default safety settings on phones/tablets. WHAT TO KNOW WHEN SEARCHING “IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING” Most women search because they feel betrayed, and they don’t realize it’s exploitation. It’s not just cheating, he’s participating in the real exploitation of women and girls . Thinking “it doesn’t hurt anyone” dismisses the real harm done to real people and relationships. If your husband is consuming it, hiding it, minimizing it, and expecting you to live with the consequences of that lie, yes, it’s cheating. And it’s actually so much more. Christen Price and Melea Stevens from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation are on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to clearly articulate why watching it is so harmful to women. TRANSCRIPT: IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? HERE’S WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW Anne: I have Christen Price and Melea Stevens on today’s episode. Christen serves as Senior Legal Counsel for the National Center on Exploitation Law Center. She engages in legal advocacy to end impunity for all forms of sexual exploitation. In her role at NCOSE Christen works to influence courts and legislatures. Toward protecting human dignity and equality on behalf of exploitation survivors, as well as resources to stop human trafficking. Through legislative advocacy, litigation, and support for other attorneys. Particularly in terms of trafficking, prostitution, child abuse, and image based abuse. Malea is on the board of the National Center for Exploitation. Welcome Christen. Christen: Thank you so much for having me. Anne: I met Christen in person a while back. She impressed me with her passion for protecting victims. I want to jump straight into talking about image-based abuse. What is image based abuse? FORMS OF IMAGE-BASED ABUSE Christen: Image based abuse is a broad term. That includes a wide range of harmful experiences involving the weaponization of explicit images or videos. IBSA involves creating, threatening to share, sharing, or using recordings without the consent of the person in them or for exploitation purposes. So sometimes people call one form of this revenge posting of intimate media, but at NCOSE we try to avoid this term because it implies that the person victimized by it did something wrong to the perpetrator, and that this is some kind of punishment payback. But the reality is that men do this to women for any reason or for absolutely no reason at all. Anne: Right! I’ve spoken to human trafficking survivors who share their experiences with this. When you say men do this to women. This podcast is specifically for women, victims of exploitation perpetrated by men. And so all of our listeners are women. Well, my intent is to help women.We do have some men listeners, but when you say that, does it ever happen the other way around? Christen: It definitely happens the other way around. And also women can victimize other women, men can victimize other men. But the victims are disproportionately women, and the perpetrators are disproportionately men. And I think the figures vary somewhat. In a 2017 US survey conducted with 3, 000 or so participants, one in eight people were targets of distribution. Or threat of distribution of intimate images without consent . Women were roughly twice as likely to be targets of this abuse. Compared to the men in that particular survey. NEWS HIGHLIGHTS Christen: But there was another survey by the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. And in their survey, over 90 percent of the victims were women, mostly between 18 and 30 years old. So there’s some variation there, of course. That IBSA affects women and girls disproportionately isn’t in dispute. Anne: Because I advocate for women, I appreciate those statistics. And letting people know that this is a woman’s health issue. It’s important to women, especially my listeners. Are there news stories that highlight this issue? Christen: So there is one. It’s significant because it shows the level of impunity people at least think they have when they perpetrate this. They arrested the mayor of a town in Maryland, called Cambridge, late last year. It’s maybe an hour and a half outside of DC where I am. They charged him with 50 counts of non consensual distribution. The CEO and the COO of —-hub, or MindGeek, the company that controls it, have resigned. You know, this is in the wake of years of reporting, but especially over the last two years. Of how their flagship site facilitates and profits from image-based abuse in the United States. In all of its various forms. Anne: When Christen says image based abuse, what I want you to think in your mind is pornography. This is what we are talking about. So husbands who are constantly on their phone looking at this stuff. Would you say all of it, or most of it, is image based abuse? For our listeners who are so traumatized by their husband’s use? IMAGE-BASED ABUSE IS HAPPENING Christen: So one thing that might be helpful would be to go down the list of the different things that fall under this category. And then you realize, wow, this is what is on sites and drives traffic to these sites. The whole industry, because it is an industry, is a profitable enterprise to exploit other people in this way. This obviously has implications, even for people who don’t end up portrayed on the websites. There’s a sense that exploitative materials use is abusive to people in general, especially women and girls. Because it’s incompatible with their full equality in society. If this is a way they can be portrayed with impunity. It has implications for everyone. Christen: But just to go down the list of the different things that fall under image based abuse (IBSA). One is sextortion, which uses inappropriate images or materials that the perpetrator blackmails the victim. Or coerces them to produce increasingly inappropriate content. So that in exchange, the initial content is not released. So that’s sextortion. Then, this is the one I think most people think of when they hear the term image based abuse. Non-consensual sharing of images. Which is sometimes accompanied by doxxing, which is you share the content. But then you add the person’s name, their address, or other identifying or locating information. Anne: Many women in our community have had their husbands secretly video them in the shower or while they were in their bedroom. This kind of behavior is also what marital coercion is. They did not know. And then he posts that online, and other people watch it as “pornography.” Not knowing that they’re actually viewing abuse. That happens frequently to women in our community. NON-CONSENSUAL RECORDINGS & HARASSMENT Christen: Yeah, that’s actually the next one I was going to say, which is non-consensual collecting. Swapping and posting of these types of images in groups or in third party platforms. As you noted, if IBSA is used, absolutely. I mean, they didn’t have consent to take the image, let alone to distribute it. Non-consensual recordings of images or videos of other types of activities, they’re not doing anything intimate. They expect they’re in a private context, like showering in the gym or even in their home or hotel room. So restrooms or locker rooms people put surveillance cameras. We call that downblousing or upskirting. Another form it takes is harassment or assault in virtual or augmented reality. So harassment through direct messaging or assault of somebody’s avatar. Like in a virtual context. Sending unsolicited material, also called cyber flashing. Identity theft, where people take someone’s images to make artificial or photoshopped videos. It’s intended to portray them as though they’re really in it. We call that cheap fake or deep fake. And then pressuring or harassing someone to self generate or share inappropriate images. So it’s quite a variety of offenses that fall under this category. And much of it makes its way onto massive public sites. THE ABUSIVE NATURE OF ONLINE EXPLOITATIVE MATERIAL Anne: I would say the average user has no idea that it is abusive. In fact, when you educate them about it, they dismiss it. They’re like, whatever. In our experience, listeners of this podcast, you’re hurting our family and marriage. You’re also just flat out watching abuse, and it’s like, no, that’s not how it is. Christen: Do you think people who say that read the tags for the material they’re watching? Because sometimes they tag it as spycam or locker room or something like that. There will be clear indications that it’s not consensual. I’m not saying that’s always the case. But that’s a thing that they to drive traffic. They categorize things. Anne: What I’m saying is they’re like, yeah, it’s a spy cam, but she doesn’t know. And she doesn’t even know it’s online. So why is it hurting her? One thing I have learned about abusers is they do not want to admit they are abusive. They don’t want to call it abuse. They want to call it anything else, because they want to continue to justify their behavior. People call this stuff out there spy cam material, not abusive spy cam material. It’s disconnected. In fact, this was fascinating. I talked to a convicted offender. He was like, wow, his mind was blown. He never thought of himself as an abuser, even though he was a convicted offender. Christen: Wow. Anne: How prevalent is image based abuse, IBSA and who is the most affected by it? IS WATCHING INAPPROPRIATE MEDIA CHEATING? YES, AND IT’S ACTUALLY SO MUCH MORE Christen: It’s impossible to know what percentage of it falls under this, which is one of the big dangers. Because someone tags it in a certain way. But it’s not necessarily going to be apparent that someone is watching abusive content. Once you put together the fact that this includes CSAM Which is rife on the internet. Anne: When you say CSAM. Our community commonly refers to that for our listeners who don’t know, as CSAM. I appreciate that NCOSE and many advocates are trying to change that language. Christen: No, thanks for saying that. I meant to include that. It is still called in the law in most places. So that’s an important distinction. It includes extremely violent and dangerous content. Which is pretty obviously harmful, regardless of whether they obtained consent. It includes the type of spy cam and other types of surreptitious recording or non consensually distributed content. So all that is abusive. All of that is exploitative, most of it is illegal in many jurisdictions. Much of what seems to drive traffic to some of these sites is this type of content. A subreddit on Reddit, I think it’s called wife pic, has 250, 000 members. The abuse is prevalent and rampant. It’s a massive risk. Anyone who consumes it chooses to consume someone’s abuse. A Human Being Is Always Objectified IMAGE BASED EXPLOITATION IS ABUSIVE Anne: We take the stance at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, people disagree with me, and I don’t care. That all use is abusive, period. It’s abusive to someone, somehow. Someone’s coerced, lied to, manipulated and harmed. That is our stance. So when you’re talking specifically about image based abuse. I think you’re also specifically talking about criminal things. People are arrested for those things. Christen: Yes, or at least sued, in some cases. Anne: With our listeners, the abuse they’re experiencing, the emotional and psychological abuse, is not a “crime.” So they have a difficult time figuring out how to get help. But it is good for them to know that anyone consuming this type of material. Or producing it will have some danger to you. Christen: Yes, there’s no exploitative material in which a human being is not objectified. That’s always present. So much of it is extremely violent and degrading, especially to women. Thinking it’s unharmful shifts the norms and expectations for all women. It’s like basically a form of propaganda. It conditions women to submit to violence rather than resist it, among other things. Women and girls are most affected by it, disproportionately. So especially younger women and girls. Anne: Yeah, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, even if the wives aren’t the ones filmed, our husbands use continues to affect us. When we think about the victims in image based abuse, and these degrading acts being visible to other people. Where do people generally post them? IBSA IS POSTED ANYWHERE YOU CAN POST Christen: They’re posted anywhere you can post things. Google will index searches for this type of content. I mean, it is everywhere. Some sites specifically devote themselves to sharing non-consensually distributed content. Really all over chat groups and texts. Anne: It’s alarming to think about. Christen: It really is. Anne: Apps, anywhere you can find anything, you can find it. But I would say the public is not. When you’re trying to explain to people why exploitative material is abusive, what arguments have you found useful? Christen: Thinking about how it works as a tactic, and also thinking about the impact, I make it clear that’s the right category for it. Taking the standard definition of abuse, it’s typically a set of tactics. Usually it’s systematic or calculated. That one person uses to gain and maintain coercive control over another. And it can be physical, emotional, financial or spiritual. Image based abuse fits squarely within that. It’s ultimately about maintaining coercive control over another person. Men have posted things because women wouldn’t go out with them, or because they broke up with them. And when we look at what effect it has on the victims, that also very much tracks with what we understand abuse to be. Anne: Coercive control is the main theme. When it comes to the husbands. They’re doing the sam

“How do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered?” might seem like an odd question to most people, especially at a time when technology makes access to media so easy. But for women who are in relationships with emotionally abusive men, the answer to that question is often the key to finding the help they need without risking exposure, especially if they share devices, or he keeps track of their browsing history. In this article we’ll cover the following: The basics about podcasts How to listen podcasts safely and privately Recognizing controlling dynamics in relationships How to avoid getting pulled back into his chaos Protecting yourself when systems fail Let’s get started. WHAT IS A PODCAST, EXACTLY? A podcast is typically a short, recorded discussion or interview about a specific topic of interest by a host and guest. For Example: The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast is a discussion for women who have been betrayed by their husbands. Our episodes are released weekly, they’re short (usually around 30 minutes), and you can listened on a phone, tablet, computer, or smart speaker anytime that is best for you. HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST – IN 3 SIMPLE STEPS STEP 1: FIND A PODCAST APP ON A SMARTPHONE Most smartphones already have podcast apps installed for you. For iPhone users : Look for and open the Apple Podcasts app OR download Spotify for free from the App Store For Android users : Download Spotify or YouTube Music from the Play Store These apps are free and they don’t require you to sign up for anything to start listening. STEP 2: SEARCH FOR THE PODCAST YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO Open your app and search for: “Betrayal Trauma Recovery” You’ll see our podcast cover (with Anne Blythe’s name on it). Tap on the show and then tap “Follow” (or “Subscribe” depending on which app you’re using). STEP 3: HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST BY STREAMING OR DOWNLOADING EPISODES You can stream episodes instantly (using data or when connected to Wi-Fi) OR If you want to save an episode to listen to later, tap the download icon (a little arrow pointing down) Once you’re done listening, you can delete it from the app, so it doesn’t show up in your history. 5 WAYS, HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WITHOUT YOUR HUSBAND FINDING OUT Here are a few extra tips for women concerned about privacy and safety: Use air pods or headphones to listen while doing chores, running errands, or on lunch breaks. Find btr.org/podcast in an Incognito or Private browser window, so nothing gets saved to your search history. Manually delete your listening history. Most podcast apps allow you to delete your playback or download history manually. Create a separate or hidden folder on your device for the podcast app. Use alone time or breaks to listen. Like a “walk to the mailbox” or “cleaning the bathroom” or folding the laundry, any time alone where you can press play and listen. Even 10 minutes can calm your nervous system and help you feel seen. This is emotional self-care. LEAVING A REVIEW HELPS MORE WOMEN FIND HELP If Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped you feel less alone, and it’s safe to do so, consider leaving a short review. It helps women find the support they desperately need. Just open the app, go to the podcast’s main page, scroll down, and tap “Write a Review.” THE PODCAST THAT COULD SAVE YOUR SANITY If you’re wondering what’s really going on in your marriage… Or you’ve been blamed for your trauma… If you’ve spent hundreds (or thousands) on therapy that only made things worse… Or your wondering how to recover after infidelity … Start here: 🎧 Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast 🎧 It’s for women only. It’s free. And it just might be the first step toward clarity and peace. BONUS: NEED A QUICK PODCAST RECOMMENDATION? Try these listener favorites: The Best Betrayal Meditation To Heal From Infidelity My Husband Won’t Stop Lying To Me – Angel’s Story 3 Ways Your Husband May Be Gaslighting You with Dr. Robin Stern You can find all episodes at btr.org/podcast . TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND STAY UNDISCOVERED Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll talk about how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered as you seek help. We’re gonna call her Elinor after Elinor Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility. Welcome Elinor. Elinor: Hey, thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be here. I found BTR on Instagram. And it really resonated with me. At that time. I was still with my husband. And I would listen to your podcast in my car when I was alone, and it helped me gain clarity about my situation. And start to put some words to the things I didn’t recognize I was experiencing. Anne: How long had you been married when you found BTR? Elinor: 21 years, so a long time. Anne: Yeah, and how many children do you have? Elinor: I have three children with him. Anne: Can you talk about the progression of what you thought was wrong, all the ways you tried to solve it or approach it before you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and our support group ? Elinor: So I guess I always knew he was controlling and wanted things a certain way. Before the pandemic, I started becoming more afraid of him. But things were worse and worse. I thought when the pandemic hit, our marriage was going to get better, because there we were all at home and we were gonna have all this time together, and I thought that would improve it. THINGS ESCALATED RAPIDLY Elinor: Things were really calm at first, but then escalated rapidly within the next few months. Before that, I hadn’t said a word to anybody. I had normalized it. So all kinds of horrific things were just a Tuesday for me. He had told me that we should keep any of our disagreements or problems just between us, and not even tell like our parents or anyone. He’s like, we just need to work this out together. That’s how you solve things. So that really silenced me from telling anyone. During the pandemic, I finally told someone, and they told me that I should speak to my bishop at that time. I was going to, and hadn’t yet, and ended up leaving for the first time. Just fleeing the house with my children, and my littlest didn’t even have her shoes on, and stayed with friends. At that point, I knew something was really wrong, but I didn’t understand. I hadn’t looked up any of this stuff. I hadn’t even searched something basic like, how do you listen to a podcast privately, because I didn’t know I was in an abusive situation. It happened that one of the counselors in my bishopric was a counselor. He talked to me about how I needed to set boundaries with my husband. I was like, oh, yes, that’s going to fix it. I’m going to set boundaries. I was so excited and I ended up coming back, because I was worried that I had ruined my marriage by leaving. And I was so afraid I’d done the wrong thing. I don’t know how to describe it, but I think people in such relationships understand. I felt like I had to be with him. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: SETTING FIRM BOUNDARIES Elinor: Now I realize because he had so belittled me and my opinion of myself, that I needed him to believe that I was worth something, to feel like I was worth something. Anne: That counselor in the Bishopric after that first time you had fled. Did he say, like “You can go back as long as you set boundaries”? Can you talk more about that? Elinor: He was like, if you want to work things out, you’ll have to set very firm boundaries. I had gone back. Right away, the bishop reached out to me. I started telling him all about what was going on, and he immediately called it out as abuse. Which I understand now from a lot of other people’s experiences is rare. And I’m really grateful. Because I didn’t wanna believe myself. Because if it was abuse, I had to change my whole life. Anne: You don’t have to change, but you may need to alter your situation. Elinor: Yes, drastically. Anne: Which is daunting. Elinor: I’d met him right after my 18th birthday. He was my first serious relationship and I didn’t have a lot to compare that relationship to, which now I tell my children, date a lot. Date that person for a long time before you get engaged to them. We dated for a few weeks, and he was quite a bit older than I was. He was seven years older, and he seemed so confident and charismatic. I thought this was like true love, and he was wonderful. I see now, he was abusive from the get go, but I didn’t recognize the red flags when they were glaring in my face. MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY DIDN’T LIKE HIM Anne: Yeah, how did he present to other people? Did they think he was a good guy? Elinor: I thought they did at first. But I can say that now that I’m out on this side and have talked to a couple of friends, they did not like him. My parents did not like him. My dad said he is a very proud man, which was strong verbiage from my dad, who’s a very gentle soul. Anne: That’s as intense as your dad would get. I think when someone’s married to someone, they don’t wanna throw someone’s spouse under the bus. ‘Cause it’s like, how is that going to help her to think her husband’s a jerk? And I’m like, it would help her. I promise it would help her. They also don’t wanna alienate her. Because they think if you say your husband is a jerk, that you’ll be like, well, then I’m not gonna talk to you. And so it’s a really hard place to be for an outsider. To wanna support your marriage, but then also want to support you. It’s really hard to figure that out. For women in situations like yours finding out how do you listen to a podcast safely and getting the right information is vital. How did you feel finding out that other people didn’t like him? Elinor: In some ways I wish they had told me, but I see for myself that I wouldn’t have believed them at the time. I was so excited about my new husband, and I thought everything was so wonderful. If they had told me he was a bad guy, I would not have listened, and I would’ve been like, something’s wrong with them. They think so badly of him. THE CONSTANT HAMSTER WHEEL OF PROVING MYSELF Anne: They’re so judgmental. Something like that, maybe. Especially if he’s set that up. A lot of abusers like this, they’ll say something like, people don’t understand me. Or, people are so judgmental. They see that I do this thing, and they assume I’m a jerk, but I’m a good guy. They set it up like this on purpose. We don’t know that, because they’re lying. And if anybody says that, then you’re like, oh yeah, he warned me that people were gonna say this. Elinor: Yes, he said he’d had other relationships before, and he felt like trust was a big deal. And right away he was like, it’s important to me that you trust me implicitly. And now I know trust is to be earned. But when I was so young, I just thought, oh, I need to show him how I trust him. And that became several decades of me trying to prove that I trusted him. I think some hallmarks of the marriage were, kindness must be earned. Which is absolutely wrong, he was always carroting things out. If you do this and this, then I’ll do this. I felt like I was on this constant hamster wheel of proving myself, proving I loved him. He would often use the term, if you love me. If, that is insidious if. Anne: One of the message strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Workshop Is to agree. I love it in this scenario, because of course, he’s gonna say, “you don’t love me. If you love me, you would…” They do that to manipulate us, but we don’t realize that. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WHEN COUPLE THERAPY ISN’T AN OPTION Anne: So if he says, “You don’t love me.” When we agree and say, “That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought about that. Let me think about that for a little while. Thanks for bringing that up.” It changes the whole dynamic. Because then it’s hard for them to manipulate you. When you don’t respect me. “I don’t? Oh, I might not.” Elinor: It flips the tables, doesn’t it? Anne: We respect them with our actions, because we’re deferring to them and making sure dinner’s ready. When he says, “You don’t respect me,” we’re thinking, “of course I do. I clean up the house. I tell people nice things about you.” Because of all your actions, you respect him, but in your mind, something’s wrong. In our minds, we’re suspicious. They know how to use that Catch 22 against us. And that’s why safe, private access to information matters so much. Some women are still at the stage of quietly asking, “how do you listen to a podcast ” because they need help, but they also need to stay undiscovered. Did you guys ever try couple therapy? Elinor: No, I knew inside my head that it would not work for us. He had told me, “The only way I would ever go to couple therapy with you would be for the couple therapist to tell me that I should divorce you.” Anne: Wow, so he didn’t wanna go to couple therapy. The way he manipulated you to not go, which actually worked in your favor, you just didn’t know that. ‘Cause the couple therapy would’ve been worse. But was to say, we’re going to couple therapy, and the couple therapist will tell me to divorce you. And that was his way to manipulate you not to go to couple therapy. Elinor: Uh-huh. DISCOVERING SIGNS OF ADDICTION Anne: Wow, I have never heard that one before, by the way. That’s a new one. Were you aware of pornography use, affairs? Elinor: When I finally told someone about his behavior, they were like, “Oh, have you asked is pornography an issue?” So he’s staying up super late. His door’s always closed. He’s upset, all the classic hallmarks. And I was like, oh, of course he’s not. But I’ll ask him just in case. Anne: Whenever someone says, “Did you talk to him about?” I’m like, they’re going to lie. So don’t ever tell someone, did you ask him about pornography? That’s never gonna help. But you didn’t know that at the time. So you asked him? Elinor: He’s like, “Oh yeah, I did look at pornography. Sometimes I do that, but it’s not a big deal.” And I was like, “Well, when did you start doing that? Has it been going on during our marriage?” It sounded like from his description, the entire marriage. And then I was starting to be worried, “So maybe is a portion of our marriage you didn’t use pornography? Is there maybe a gap somewhere that I could base the behavior with the behavior without?” He mentioned one 18 month gap in the entire 20 something years of marriage where he hadn’t used. And I was like, “That sounds like an addiction.” And he was like, “Oh no, it’s not addiction. I could quit anytime.” HE WAS PROUD THAT HE KEPT ME FROM SEEING THE TRUTH Elinor: And then I knew it was. I’m like you could quit anytime, right? So why haven’t you? I didn’t ask him that. At that point. I was like, oh wow, we’ve got a deep addiction here. I didn’t see anything he used. He was proud that I never saw anything. I remember asking him, ” Where are you looking at these things? Like where are you finding them?” And he was like, “You’ll never find out.” He had that little side smirk smile. And I never did, but that just sickened my soul. When he gave that answer, he was proud of it. And he was not sorry. He was not in any way taking any responsibility for its effect on anyone else. And he never did. I realized I needed to know how do you listen to a podcast undiscovered, for my emotional safety. I thought maybe if we solved the “pornography” problem, our relationship would improve. Now I have something to point at, oh, it’s this. That’s what the problem is. And as I talked to my bishop about it, I remember sitting in his office just shaking and shaking. That shook my whole world, ’cause I believed he was faithful to me. I consider pornography deeply unfaithful. Anne: My book is coming out soon, explaining why he was lying all the time to everyone and proud of it. And probably because he was such a liar, he was doing other things that you didn’t find out about either. That you may find out later. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: WHEN HE PULLS YOU BACK IN Anne: Are you divorced now? Elinor: I’m still in process. Yeah, it’s gonna be long and ugly. Anne: Those of us who have been divorced for a long time. It’s almost been 10 years for me right now. We find out stuff like years later, it’s pretty crazy. You’re like, what? I thought this was what was happening, and then you find out somehow that it was something different. It’s like the truth finds you. I bet you’ll find out a lot more as things progress. When you know how do you listen to a podcast for help. Elinor: I read it takes an average of seven times to leave an abusive relationship, and how there’s just gravity that sucks you back in the hoovering, right? But when I read about that, I thought it would never be me. I wouldn’t go and come back and go and come back, but oh my goodness, it was me and the “hopium” that things were going to change, that it was going to get better. It really pulled me back. The first time I left, I was gone for three days and then, okay, so this is terrifying. He hunted me down and found us in a different town, which is super creepy. I didn’t immediately go back. And he was like, I am so sorry. Which is a big deal, because the rest of my marriage, he was never sorry, never. Things happened, he would make me apologize for it. I would beg, there would be silent treatments. I would have to do physical punishments to make up for it, and we never talked about it. So they just got shoved in the back of my mind, all the horrible things that happened. IT WAS BETTER FOR TWO WEEKS Elinor: There was no acknowledgment. When I left the first time, he was down on his knees when he found me and said, “Oh my goodness, I’m so sorry.” I was like, oh, wow, he finally admits he’s been so angry and so crazy, and life has been horrendous, and the children are afraid, and I am afraid. And he was like, everything’s gonna be so much better. He of course promised the whole world, I believed him. I went back the next day after talking to my clergy and trying to set some boundaries. And the next two weeks were amazing. He was so great. I was like, wow, this has changed. Our marriage is gonna be so much better. And it was better for two weeks. And then it was worse than ever. These stories you read about where people say, “Oh, if you go back, it’s gonna be worse.” I can 100% testify if you leave and come back, it’s going to be worse. I left and went back three times, and it was definitely horribly worse each time. And each time there was a section of time where he was so much nicer for a little while, and then he would make me pay for it later. It was just sickeningly awful. I kept my bag packed, because my friend had warned me sometimes this behavior doesn’t keep. Sometimes they don’t change. They just want you to believe they’re gonna change. Oh my goodness. It didn’t keep, and I started not being able to sleep, not being able to eat. I LEFT AGAIN, BUT MISSED HIM AND WANTED TO GO BACK Elinor: Probably the knowledge of just finding out my husband has been using pornography for 20 years, like the sickening awareness that my husband was betraying me for so long. Then I left again, because his behavior was horrifying, and he actively tried to turn the children against me. I flew home to my parents. That time when I left, my bishop’s wife actually came and helped us leave. We escaped down the basement door during a rainstorm. It was pretty traumatic, especially for the children. I needed help. I learned how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered, for our safety. After learning more I thought, well, I’ll never come back. I stayed with my family and missed him. Then I started second guessing myself on everything. I thought, oh, I’ve just misunderstood things. He always told me I misunderstood things and that I was stupid. Lots of things don’t make sense to me because of the way I am. That’s what he would say. Only I know that’s not so now, but I wanted to go back. At that point my oldest child would not come back with me. She was like, Mom, don’t go back to him. And I wa

By the time many women find Betrayal Trauma Recovery they’ve already been through years of couples counseling, addiction therapy, or programs focused on marriage therapy for infidelity , hoping a professional will help them finally piece together what really happened. Therapists in recovery programs sometimes use a tool called a therapeutic disclosure to guide the couple to the “whole truth” about a husband’s history of addiction, secrecy, and infidelity. But these disclosures take months, even up to a year to complete, leaving his wife waiting on more information about the betrayals, being re-traumatized by each new revelation, and potentially exposing her to more lies and emotional abuse. To see if any of the things he’s disclosing qualify as emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse test . 5 WAYS MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY DELAYS EMOTIONAL SAFETY 1. MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY OFTEN STARTS WITH THE WRONG QUESTION Marriage therapy for infidelity often starts by focusing on “why” a husband lied and cheated, even going so far as to frame it as a “marriage issue.” In this case, the betrayed wife is asked to patiently wait through her husband’s process of feeling safe enough to tell the truth. The first question a therapist should be asking is what his wife needs “right now” for emotional safety. 2. MANIPULATION OFTEN CONTINUES INSIDE MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Marriage therapy for infidelity isn’t a good fit for couples when a husband has lied to and manipulated his wife to hide his infidelity, because his choice to do those things is an individual character issue. If he hasn’t made any effort before now to admit this, to accept the consequences, or repair the harm his choices caused his wife, it’s likely that he’ll just continue his pattern of manipulation in therapy. 3. THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN MISS THE REAL PROBLEM: EMOTIONAL ABUSE Infidelity involves lying, manipulation, coercion, and control, which are all forms of emotional abuse. Emotionally abusive men aren’t abusive simply because of trauma or shame. Abuse is a choice. Because therapeutic disclosures often keep women in close proximity to emotional abuse, it’s important to understand how manipulation can continue during the process. Abusive men often use “trickle truth,” revealing small pieces of information over time. What looks like honesty can actually be a calculated way prolong his manipulation and control of the situation. The therapist and his wife keep chasing reasons while the abuse continues. In situations like this, it’s often safer for the betrayed wife not to participate in the abusive partner’s therapy process at all. 4. MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN TEACH A MANIPULATOR HOW TO SOUND EMPATHETIC In many recovery programs, therapists will try to help a husband who has lied and cheated to express remorse by using empathy statements. But if he doesn’t actually have empathy for his wife’s suffering, those tools can just be performative. He may sound understanding without truly changing his behavior. Before, you might have been able to tell when he lacked empathy. After therapy, he may simply have better words to hide it. 5. THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN PROLONG MANIPULATION The process of crafting a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. Instead of convincing a husband to do a therapeutic disclosure, women who experience betrayal can focus on their own emotional and psychological safety. Learn More About the Risks of Marriage Therapy for Infidelity: Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast . Determine Her Husband’s True Character: Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to determine if your husband is emotionally abusive and to gain strategies for safety. Get Professional Support : Facing this type of abuse is difficult. There is a community of women who understand. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. TRANSCRIPT: MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY? THE RISKS YOU NEED TO KNOW Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I’m Anne. By the time betrayed women find my organization, Betrayal Trauma Recovery , they’ve already spent years and tons of money on couple therapy or addiction therapy like for sex addiction. Even if you’ve never considered marriage therapy for infidelity, if you are trying to get the truth out of your husband, asking questions like, “Did you have an affair?”, “When did the affair start?” Or “That one night you said you couldn’t help me with my project. Were you with her?” you’re likely frustrated and confused. I’ve interviewed more women than I can count who have been to marriage therapy for infidelity and revealed what actually happens. Usually the therapist suggests a therapeutic disclosure as part of that therapy process. I’m gonna do a quick overview right now of the five things I’m gonna cover in depth today, And then after I’ll go into the details of each of these things. So here’s the quick overview. 5 RISKS OF THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Here’s the quick overview: Asking a liar to tell you the truth about what he lied about is problematic. So whether your therapist says that he can get him to tell the truth, or if you’re a woman who’s trying to by asking him questions, either way, you need to know what obstacles you might to run into. Even if he says he’s willing to go to therapy for infidelity, or the therapist tells you that the truth will come out, think about his history. If he’s always told you what you wanna hear, this could be just a continuation of that. And there’s a way to know if this time it’s different. Let’s say he did tell the truth of all of his sexual indiscretions. Even in that case, it won’t account for all the gaslighting. It’s highly unlikely that he’ll tell you all of his efforts to hide what he was doing, amounts to emotional and psychological abuse. There’s so much here, so stick around so I can explain everything. If he’s lying, marriage therapy for infidelity is going to backfire because he is gonna start using therapy language in order to better manipulate you. I’ll share the things that therapists give him in order to “help” him. Like empathy scripts tend to make it worse because he is not actually empathetic. Whereas before you could tell he wasn’t empathetic. In terms of a therapeutic disclosure, that process can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. So if you’ve been trying to get the truth out of your husband and you’re considering maybe marriage therapy for infidelity, I just want you to understand the risks involved before you schedule an appointment. WHAT IS A THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: When you discover your husband is looking at online content, lying, having affairs, or soliciting, someone might tell you, or you may think he’s a sex addict. And if you go to addiction therapy. There’s a high likelihood that an addiction therapist, will have him do a therapeutic disclosure. So we’re going to talk about why I think therapeutic disclosures are dangerous. And then you decide what you want to do after listening to what I have to say. So, first of all, what is a therapeutic disclosure? It is a process that involves the addict disclosing their full history to his wife. In a “so-called structured way” with the guidance of a therapist. In theory, the purpose of a therapeutic disclosure is to provide the betrayed wife all the information she needs. For her to make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward. Now, I want to talk about all the reasons why that doesn’t make sense. First of all, their history does not include all the times they manipulated their wife over little and big things. All the lies, all the emotional and psychological abuse, and the coercion. It does not address his emotional abuse, which is the actual problem. If you take that to the next logical step, you might say, then I’m going to get them in an abuse program. Well, an abuse program is pretty much the exact same thing. It’s in a couple setting where the wife says, Hey, these are the things I need to see. This is what I want to know. THE RISKS Of THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: There’s really no difference. Your abusive husband can manipulate the therapist . He can take his time and drag it out. Like he has a lot of control to exploit that situation. So abuse experts understand that anything therapeutic will worsen the abuse. Because men aren’t abusive because of their childhood trauma or shame, or for any other reason other than they want to exploit people. I know many people with childhood trauma. I feel shame. And I watch a lot of TV sometimes, or I might go for a walk. I call my sister, you know, some people use model trains. Abuse is not the only option here. There are so many other options. Nothing’s gonna stop him from wanting to exploit the situation. Except for him wanting to stop. And if he wanted to stop, he wouldn’t be like that in the first place. So abuse is a choice. The purpose of therapy is to uncover the underlying cause of a person’s behavior. So in therapy, an abusive, manipulative, deceitful man will run the therapist and his wife in circles. He’ll give both of them all sorts of reasons. And most of these reasons are lies, and then these “reasons” take on a life of their own. So it’s best to stay away from being involved in an abusive man’s therapy, treatment, or program at all costs. A therapist could tell you that a therapeutic disclosure is important, to “avoid trickle disclosures.” And that sounds like a good idea. If a therapist tells you we’re going to do this, so you can get the whole truth. So he doesn’t just give you a little information. here and there. WAITING FOR A THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE CAN KEEP WOMEN IN UNSAFE SITUATIONS Anne: But what they won’t tell you is this is just an abuser lying. He’ll disclose bits of information tactically to manipulate, distress you or drag things out. They know that this process of disclosing things at tactical times gives them control. So they’re going to prolong the process for as long as possible to maintain that control. Throughout that whole thing she’s still unsafe. She’s unsafe at every point. Not realizing she’s being lied to and manipulated, staying in contact with his constant abuse. Most often in the form of grooming. And because they’re doing this, victims undergo immense trauma for that time. Now, even if they don’t realize it, it seems like it’s going well. So many women come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and share six months after the disclosure or two years later. They realize what was happening. And they realized it was all lies and manipulation. They are so traumatized that they spent that much time basically just in this fog. With a therapist possibly enabling their continued abuse. Years ago, when I started podcasting, I interviewed a C-SAT about disclosures. She disagrees with me and thinks disclosures are great. And she uses them in her practice. When I interviewed her, it was really at the beginning. I didn’t love disclosures, but I was willing to have an open-mind. I posted the interview on my podcast, and then pretty soon after removed it. Because I realized this is problematic, and I don’t want to hurt someone’s reputation. My podcast isn’t a gotcha podcast. I appreciate everyone who has spent the time to come and be interviewed. QUESTIONS ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Sometimes I disagree with people. And because of the way the interview goes, I don’t air that episode. Because I want to make sure I’m putting out the best information that I feel good about. I also want to acknowledge that some of you may have actually gone through this process, and it worked out great for you. If you feel that way, go to the bottom of this transcript, and comment. You can interact with our community about your experience. If it worked for you, I’m so glad it did. I don’t want to recommend it to anyone. And I’ll tell you the reasons why, but I also don’t want you to feel bad if you did it and it worked out great for you. Everybody is different. But reading the transcript of this podcast from years ago, which hasn’t even been in circulation, right? I took it out of circulation years ago. We talked about therapeutic disclosures. There are so many important points that I wanted to talk about. Now part of that episode was that we sent out a call for questions about disclosures at that time. And women wrote in their questions. So here’s a question that we received. One community member asked. Shouldn’t it be up to the wife to know or ask anything she needs to, even if it hurts her and causes her more pain? Is pain the enemy here? Isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation far more dangerous? So that was the first question. THERAPISTS’ ASSUMPTIONS & MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES Anne: Now this therapist said she thought it was up to the partner to decide the level of detail they wanted in the disclosure. Which is fascinating to me that this therapist assumed this guy would somehow tell the truth. Or that she could get the level of information she actually wanted. He’s super manipulative. So putting a woman in this position where you’re giving her the impression that she can get information. If he is a liar who manipulates people, is super scary. The woman who asked the question says, isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation, far more dangerous? Yes, a hundred percent, but the disclosure itself is an unsafe situation. I’m going to talk about what to do, instead of a disclosure at the end. So keep listening, because I will give you an alternative. This therapist said when she starts disclosures, and I’m going to do a quote here. She said, “For me, when I’m leading disclosures or doing training about disclosures, I encourage partners to start with the least amount of detail. You can ask more, you have a right to ask for more information, but let’s be slow and careful. That it’s not too much information for your brain. Some of this information will be traumatic for you.” Like, you know, it’s going to be really traumatic for you. And so maybe you shouldn’t find out that it is insane for a therapist to say this. I can’t believe I had this episode up for a while. WHY HER SAFETY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HIS HEALING Anne: This therapist said, “So sometimes people get caught up in the emotion, and they want to know more and more. And that’s fine if they want to know, but I always ask them. Do you want to know? Is it going to be helpful in your healing?” Why would not knowing the truth be helpful in any situation? Like you can’t heal without the truth. Because if you don’t know what the truth is about the situation, you can’t make good choices. So why would anyone imply it’s okay? To not be aware of who your husband really is. Why would a therapist want to hide a man’s true character from his wife? Then I asked the therapist. What about safety issues, like isn’t that the most important thing? And she was like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to think about safety, but that was not the first thing she said. And she didn’t even mention it. Instead she was like, Does she want to know the truth or does she want to heal? And when it came to safety, the only thing she mentioned was getting an STD test. She did not tell me how to set boundaries . And I thought. You’re not going to mention that lying is emotional abuse , or the psychological abuse, or grooming? The fact that the thing you’re doing right now, her involvement with his therapy, his addiction recovery. Is counter-indicated when it comes to abuse. And you’re not talking about abuse. That’s dangerous. SAFETY CONCERNS ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES Anne: So when I asked her this. This was her response. She said, “I work with addicts and their partners. When I work with an addict and help him prepare his disclosure. We’re looking at all the categories of behavior and addiction. He may not have behavior in all categories, but I want them to go through an inventory of every category. And then she starts talking about literally the details of the acting out, like specific ways he has behaved. And she starts delineating these things, and I’m like, what about abuse? She’s still not even saying this man is abusive and manipulative. How does all the different ways he had cheated, help her know that this is abuse? So then I asked her. What about other questions that aren’t related to this kind of behavior? Like lying. So I keep trying to go back to this, and she said that’s a hard one, because addicts have lied for so long. It’s hard for them to go through all the lies and correct all the lies in a disclosure. But isn’t that the point of a disclosure to find out the truth? You’re just going to hear me getting frustrated as I talk about this interview and the things she told me. Because it starts going around and around in circles. And I’m trying, but she doesn’t want to connect the dots. And so it got more frustrating as time went on. Then she says something that we absolutely do not recommend. And you’ll know why at the end. She says the addict prepares a disclosure document in marriage therapy for infidelity. HOW THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES GIVE A LIAR TIME TO CRAFT A STORY Anne: So basically, you’re giving this man a lot of time to write down all his manipulative reasons and craft this narrative any way he wants. To paint himself any way he chooses. Usually they paint themselves where they’re a victim in some way, they’re a victim because their dad didn’t love them enough. Or they’re a victim because their relationship with their mom is bad or they’re a victim because their dog died. So really, this disclosure is just putting her in the position to be lied to more. And the therapist said, okay, so she’s going to get this paper of this narrative that he concocted? And that’s when she gets to start asking him questions about it. But if he’s going to continue to lie. Do you see the problem? We’re going in circles. And this is a direct quote. She said, “Sometimes the disclosure can be a time for lies. Sometimes there are so many lies. The addict will never be able to tell the truth about them all. And the question is, Is the addict trying to live, honestly? Has he lied to her to protect her? What? No, nope, that’s not the reason. And then she says this, and this is what I just talked about. “And usually the lying comes from a behavior much younger, and from another time. It doesn’t excuse it, but it does explain it. And then we can get to the root of it.” Like, no, he just lied because he chose to, and he’s continuing the lie because he chooses to. MANIPULATION CAN CONTINUE EVEN WITH A THERAPIST INVOLVED Anne: Then I say to this therapist, she doesn’t need to worry about why he’s lying. The lying in and of itself is dangerous, and she needs to be shielded from being lied to. All she needs to understand is the type of character he has. That this was emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. And he’s continuing to do it. So I go back to the safety issue. Because like, you’re still not getting it. Like, are you going to get it in this interview? She says, “I think the disclosure is important, because one person has knowledge and information about the relationship that the other doesn’t.” Absolutely, but do you think someone who is hiding something on purpose, who has for years. Who is now being forced to do it by will be like, okay, I’m going to do it now in marriage therapy for infidelity. Like, no, this is just an opportunity for more of it. So the therapist said,

Do you feel anxious, confused, or unsafe in your marriage, but you can’t quite explain why? These 7 emotional safety examples can help you find clarity when your husband’s words sound loving, but his actions leave you feeling betrayed. Before we get to the list, to see if he’s using any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse tactics, take our free emotional abuse test . 7 EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES In this article you’ll see the following emotional safety examples: 7 Practical examples of emotional safety issues. Identifying his behaviors that threaten your emotionally safety. Realizing that your reactions to his emotional abuse are “normal.” What getting the right information means for your emotional safety. Honoring your needs and boundaries is essential as you decide next steps . 1. IF HIS ACTIONS DON’T MATCH HIS WORDS, TRUST WHAT YOU SEE How it Sounds: “I love you and I’d never do anything to hurt you or our family.” His promises could sound comforting, but his patterns are evidence that shows who he really is. If you find yourself assessing his mood or, rehearsing conversations afterwards to figure out what went wrong. Or realize the same issues never get resolved no matter how carefully you explain them, start trusting what you can see and feel. Emotional safety begins with trusting your instincts. 2. IF HE USES MONEY OR OTHER RESOURCES TO CONTROL YOU, UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS How it Sounds: “I’m just trying to take care of you. You don’t need to worry about the money.” It may feel caring or protective for your husband to take care of the finances, but if he is secretive about his purchases, monitors every purchase you make, withholds money, interferes with your ability to work, or makes you feel dependent on him for basic needs, that is not protection. It is control. Emotional safety examples, means you have access to money, transportation, information, food, medical care, and communication without having to beg, panic, or wait for him to decide whether you deserve them. 3. IF HE USES STRESS, SADNESS, OR HELPLESSNESS TO EXPLOIT YOU, PROTECT YOUR ENERGY How it Sounds: “ I’m so overwhelmed lately. I need your help, so I can focus on recovery .” If your husband tries to pressure you into feeling responsible for his recovery by using stress at work or his overwhelming shame as an excuse to get you to schedule his appointments or keep track of his progress, it’s important that you protect your energy. Emotional safety means he considers you as a person with needs and a life of your own, not just someone who’s there to “help him” manage his. 4. IF HE TWISTS THE TRUTH AND BLAMES YOUR “POOR” COMMUNICATION, BE STRATEGIC: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES How it Sounds: “You never told me you had a problem with my behavior.” One of the ways a manipulative husband keeps his wife from discovering the whole truth about his addictions or affairs, is to keep her stuck in a cycle of confusion over communication. You might have already spent years crying and trying to explain how his choices are hurting you, only to have him say that he “didn’t understand because you didn’t explain it clearly” or because “he didn’t like being accused.” Emotional safety examples are not established by trying to perfectly explain why something hurts you. It’s recognizing that someone who benefits from deception has a strong incentive to pretend he never understood your concerns in the first place. 5. IF HE BLAMES YOU FOR HIS BETRAYALS, REMEMBER BLAME IS A DEFLECTION How it Sounds: “I wouldn’t have done this if you were more affectionate, less critical, or easier to live with.” If your husband blames you for his use of inappropriate material, cheating, emotional affairs, lies, or other betrayals, he is shifting responsibility for choices that were always his to make. Emotional safety examples begin with releasing yourself from any responsibility for the choices he has made. 6. IF HE SUGGESTS COUPLE THERAPY, SEEK EMOTIONAL SAFETY FIRST How it Sounds: “Let’s go to couples therapy so we can both work on our issues.” If your husband lies or withholds information that directly affects your reality, safety, health, finances, sexuality, or ability to make informed decisions, he uses coercive control. This is not a marriage issue. Traditional couples therapy is not designed to address ongoing deception and manipulation, especially when one person benefits from keeping the other and the therapist confused. Determining what you need for emotional safety, comes before focusing on repairing the relationship. 7. EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: IF HE LIES ABOUT YOU TO OTHERS, PROTECT YOUR PEACE How it Sounds: “She’s unstable. She’s angry. She needs help. I’m really worried about her.” If your husband feels he is losing control, he may try to control the narrative. He might tell your “friends” that he’s worried about your mental health or tell your pastor that you’re bitter and unforgiving, or the counselor that you’re an angry person. He may even plant seeds of doubt about your character with your children, and try to pin the “marriage issues” on your reactions to his manipulations. It’s normal to feel like you have to defend yourself, but you do not owe unsafe people any explanation. Emotional safety examples include choosing grounded support, protecting your peace, and letting your consistent actions speak over time. Talk to women who can support you and validate you. We’d love to see you in a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. TRANSCRIPT: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES Anne: Okay, here’s my interview with Roxanna. I have a woman I actually knew in person from years ago when I went to 12-Step. She wrote a book called, Forgotten In The Battle of Sexual Addiction, the Journey of a Spouse . I’m honored to catch up, Roxanna. Let’s just start wherever you would like to start. Roxanna: Thank you Anne. I am excited to be here. When I met my husband and started building a family when we married, there were certain behaviors that he had that I thought were normal and that I needed to work around. I was in a 12-Step meeting one day when I suddenly remembered something from my childhood. My sister and I came home from school animated and excited. But when we hit the back door, we lowered our voices, and we immediately began assessing our situation. Was Dad home? Had he gone to the bar? Had he gone to his second job? Was Mom upstairs crying? Because our emotional safety examples revolved around an accurate assessment of his mood. And I realized I was doing the same thing. That I was to a place in the relationship where when I was around him, I assessed and responded to keep myself safe. Anne: Did you know that you were experiencing abuse? Roxanna: At that point, no, because it wasn’t until 24 years into the marriage and I refer to it as the bomb because it exploded my existence. It totally fractured everything that I had built my life around. THE TRUTH THAT EXPLODED MY EXISTENCE Roxanna: Now he came forward with a very sterile confession, but it was incomplete. About a week later, the spirit said, check his wallet. And I found motel receipts. I had a very flexible job, and the next morning, I checked our bank records. What I found sickened me: phone stuff, prostitution, strip clubs, inappropriate viewing. I mean, it was a bomb. Because of his vast flips in personality, I went from thinking he was bipolar to wondering who he was. Because it was clear to me that so much of my reality wasn’t as I knew it to be. And I asked him to meet me at a park, and I said, I don’t know what you’re doing or who you are, but if you don’t get help, I’m going to file for divorce today. He checked himself into a rehab center. And I got really sick, and I mean like eight months of illness, 12 times of being hospitalized, and he couldn’t continue the facade. Anne: Also, he can’t get you to do what he wants at this point, because you’re too sick to do it. You’re too sick to be exploited in the way he was exploiting you before. You’re too sick to be manipulated. I’m so, so sorry. Because that’s when you need the person to be there for you. Roxanna: Yeah. Anne: They think that you’re created for them, but they don’t like giving back. Roxanna: Right, they objectify everyone around them. Anne: So the rehab center he checked into was for drugs and alcohol. Roxanna: Yes, but at the end the counselor said, “I think your husband is an addict.” And I countered with, ” What in the world is that?” I LEARNED TO MEET MY OWN NEEDS Anne: And no one identified any emotional, psychological, financial or spiritual abuse , at that time, not the therapist or anything? No one said anything about abuse? There were no emotional safety examples for me to follow. Roxanna: That therapist blamed me. And I looked at it as a two-way street. I was 46 when this happened, and gradually, I gave space, I gave Jack first a year. I didn’t do that verbally, but I did that in my heart and mind. Part of my learning process was to learn to hold boundaries with someone I didn’t think I could hold boundaries with. As I held boundaries and learned to meet my own needs. I learned to make decisions based on what I saw and what my truth was, not what he was telling me. It freed him to decide what he wanted. Anne: Well, he was always free to do what he wanted the whole time. Roxanna: But some of those boundaries allowed me to step out of the position of being blamed. Anne: He never had to blame you. Roxanna: Right, but he did. Anne: Yeah, the language “allowed him”, I’m like no. He was always free to choose. Roxanna: I look at myself and think I made a million mistakes, but were they mistakes? Probably not. One of the experiences I learned from a Saturday. I wanted it to be a wonderful day, and Jack just kept sulking on the couch. I remember coming over and visiting with him and saying, “What’s up?” and I can’t remember the words he used. But essentially, I’m mad because you are supposed to make me happy, and I’m not happy. and I just kept trying to make life pleasant. I would twist myself and my schedule into a pretzel. EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: WE WANT TO PROTECT OUR FAMILIES Anne: It’s a total normal reaction. We all value our dignity. We’re all going to stand up for ourselves. We’re all going to try and improve the situation. Women are incredible. They’re smart, they’re capable. And when something’s not quite right, of course we wanna fix it, anybody would. Healthy people want to help the people they love, they wanna care. Women who have never been abused act the same way. They’re like, “Are you okay? What’s wrong? How can I help you?” Because they’re a good person. It’s just that manipulators use that against you, regardless of your background. And that’s the hard part for women to wrap their heads around, is that they’ve never done anything wrong. I’ve done over 200 long form interviews that are like an hour or longer, and they’re all different. Women come from really healthy backgrounds, women come from unhealthy ones, and we’re all completely different. But we all wanna help out. We all wanna protect our families. Of course, none of us are perfect. We’re just trying to navigate someone who’s lying to us and manipulating us. They’re actually doing the right things. He’s just using all the right things against them. Roxanna: That is so true, Anne. I love your stance on it. We are amazing. You’re responding reasonably to an unreasonable situation. You’re learning to be true to yourself. You don’t have to believe what other people tell you. Somewhere in your gut and somewhere with God, you can figure out in those moments, “That’s not my job.” I could leave. I TRIED MARRIAGE AGAIN AND HE LIED TO ME, TOO Roxanna: Jack had a lot of medical issues. One night we were in the ER, it was very late, he was overtly flirting, and it was horrible. And I left. That was the good part. But then the old messages started playing in my head. A good wife wouldn’t leave her husband in the ER, wouldn’t do this. A good wife wouldn’t do that. Instead of trying to fight those untrue messages, I went back. At this point, I didn’t have emotional safety examples to help me understand what was happening. That was a very unpleasant night. That took me months to be able to talk about. But I learned from it. I learned that I could never reenter the room or the situation that was hurtful. That learning resulted in a later episode in an ICU room, and I left. After Jack passed away, I tried marriage again, and despite all that I had learned, his facade fooled me. Anne: Yeah, he lied to you on purpose. He didn’t fool you, he lied. Roxanna: Yeah. Anne: How did you feel when you met him? I wanna bring this up, because you’re not doing anything wrong. You’re very healthy at this point. You’ve really focused on making sure that you’re making good choices, which you’ve been doing all along. I recently did an episode about how Jesus was betrayed. He was perfect. And Judas still lied. In that episode, I talk about how Judas betrayed him long before the last supper. When he is like, whoever takes the bread will betray him because Judas had gone out and arranged it prior to this. I HAD THE RIGHT TO JUDGE HIS BEHAVIOR Anne: So you could have been absolutely perfect, and he would’ve lied to you, and still you wouldn’t have known. So that’s why I’m like, tell me about what you’re feeling in real time. Like you meet him, and he seems probably really great, because I’m guessing you don’t wanna go through what you’ve just been through. Roxanna: Well, the interesting part is I knew that he had struggled with alcohol. But he told me he was clean. Because of my background, we talked extensively about what he wanted in his life. What I learned is that I had the right to judge people on what they had done. Anne: Right. Roxanna: Not what they said. Anne: Well, how old is this guy? Roxanna: He was 56. Anne: So if he wanted what he said he wanted, he would be that person already. Roxanna: I learned that. Anne: So he is just lying. My ex, I talked to him extensively about exploitative materials use. ‘Cause I did not wanna marry a user. He told me to my face, “I don’t use it.” And he still did. We choose our character one choice at a time. So at 56 with this guy. If he wanted the things he was lying to you about, he would’ve been that person. But he wasn’t that person. But he knew you wanted that. You didn’t have emotional safety examples. LYING IS CONTROL: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES Roxanna: Absolutely, a healthy marriage cannot be built by one person. It takes the foundation of honesty. Marriage therapy often does not work, because a lot of times therapists don’t even see the lie. Anne: Right, or they don’t view lies as domestic abuse. And couple therapy or any type of couple work is never, ever ethically indicated if there’s abuse. So if they’re like, “Oh yeah, we’ll help him with his lying.” I’m like, well, that is abuse. So that should never happen. But they don’t view it as emotional manipulation and psychological abuse a lot of the time, which I disagree with. The definitions from mainstream domestic abuse educators would include lying as domestic abuse. So they just haven’t been trained in abuse. There’s this huge problem with this gap between what the behaviors actually are and how they’re literally defined, how they’re viewing them, which is a problem that I’m always combating. Roxanna: Yes, I bet you are, because in my mind, lying comes from not seeing the other person as a real person with wants and needs of their own. Anne: Well, and at the heart of abuse, because lying is control. You’re controlling that person through withholding certain information from them that they have a right to know. So it’s a serious coercive control issue. It’s not like I was ashamed or something. It doesn’t matter if you were ashamed or not. It meets the legal definition of coercive control. I WANTED HUMAN CONNECTION, NOT A “TRANSACTIONSHIP” Roxanna: Right, and marriages cannot last in a healthy way with deceit. And that’s one thing that this process of growth learning emotional safety examples has helped me identify, is what I want. Anne: Yeah. Roxanna: I wanted human connection. And when you are lying or when you see the other person as just a means to your end, there is no human connection. I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who said the man in the arena who comes out and he’s bloody from trying, he doesn’t have any armor on. He doesn’t have any deceit in him. He comes out and wants to try honestly. And what is required, and what these men typically do not understand. Is that we’re asking for the human connection. We ask others to see us as another human being, and they want to treat us as something that meets their needs. Anne: Yeah, that’s essentially the definition of abuse, is that you view the other person as someone who you exploit for your own gain. But they’re not an equal to you. I remember something you said way, way back in the day. This was when you were still married to Jack. You said to him, I’m someone who buys the groceries, takes care of the kids, and gives him it, but that’s about it. I’m not a person to him. And that stuck with me. ‘Cause many views I have now evolved, obviously over the years, because I’ve talked to so many women and become so educated about abuse and the long term affects . I didn’t have the two things put together. I thought I knew about abuse, but I really didn’t understand it back then. And that is the heart of it. WHAT HIS PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR MEAN Anne: Whether he has an addiction and what he’s doing about that, it’s always abuse to us as the victim of that. With the most recent husband, how did you find out? The difference between what he said and what he did is that what you started to observe? Or did you have a D-Day with the new husband? Roxanna: That’s a really good question. They were in little snippets. So about a month after we married, the behaviors began. The objectifying, the using, the shutting me out and off started almost immediately. We took a vacation with my family. In very separateness from associating with my family, he started penalizing me for asking questions. And that’s when I knew I was in real trouble. The drinking and substance abuse started later. So, from there. I went back to getting support. He remained angry. He was always defensive. So I filed for divorce, it was a heartbreak. They always are. You’re always losing hopes and dreams, and you have to grieve it. At the same time, it had begun to affect my health. And I knew it would destroy me if I didn’t keep myself in a safe place. Anne: Yeah, here at BTR, everything’s founded on the strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop . And it’s the same thing you’re talking about. If she wants safety, and help with emotional safety examples, She’s going to need to learn some skills. But there’s nothing wrong with her character. THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU, YOU JUST DIDN’T HAVE THE RIGHT INFORMATION Anne: If you put our program next to 12-Step. There are no character defects. You’ve always been trying to get help. You’ve always been trying to do the right thing. But you just didn’t have the right information. You didn’t realize what you were dealing with. Once you realize what’s happening, he’s lied to you and he’s manipulative. You can create some space, either just in your mind or physical space, whatever kind of space you need to observe. And that’s what you’ve been talking about. Just observe, see if their actions match their words. As you observe, some of them might start making good choices, observing whether that’s grooming, like what you experienced with your second marriage. ‘Cause he was grooming you and lying to you from the beginning. So it wasn’t like he switched, he was the same person. He just switched tactics. He went from grooming to being mean to you. You know, I’m being angry. They’re both two sides of the control coin of trying to manipulate you to do what he wa

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